I'm a 5 years Python programmer, but shortly I'll be also working with PHP. Could you recommend me some readings to getting in touch with this language having in mind my Python skills?
This table has a list of many cognate expressions in php, python, ruby and perl.
Ask HN: PHP for Python Programmers
If you are familiar with MVC start learning from Zend Framework I think it will be easier for you to understand php, right php developing this way with a right leg start.
Object oriented business logics are same in any language.
I really want to get into python so we can exchange knowledge ;)
the best resource IMHO is still php.net there are a ton of decent books out there, but I still prefer to rely on php.net for the latest and greatest.
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Yes, I'm in doubt if that's a duplicate, I've searched a while but nothing exactly like this one.
I'm a hobbyist programmer, I know C++ and python well, but I'm a completely noob when it comes to web-development, it sounds more natural to me to learn PHP without frameworks, but then comes the question, is there any python module or framework that allow me to develop websites like in php-without-frameworks?, because i really prefer python over php, and also i pretend to move to Django after i learned the basics in the hard way.
I also want to code javascript and css by my own, i just want this module/framework that concatenates the native approach for web of php, but in python language 'cause i love it.
Thanks.
The python cgi module might be what you want, though it is hard to tell exactly what you want. You could also try using WSGI, which is low-level, similar in some ways to cgi. Anyway, these interfaces leave you at a pretty low level, so if you're doing this just to learn "the hard way", this is an educational way of doing that.
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I'm planning on moving to Python and I have a couple of additional questions along with the title:
did you have more fun with python?
are you as productive as when you're using PHP?
what made you change to python?
Would you do a project again in PHP? If so, why?
Your answers would really be useful for us PHP devs wanting something more I guess :)
Thanks in advance!
I was a PHP dev for about 5 years before switching to Python almost exclusively a year ago. The experience has been a mostly positive one; I'll answer your questions but also list a few gotchas I ran into.
Definitely. I continually find surprisingly powerful features/expressions in Python that do a great deal in a small amount of code (yet still being more readable than Perl).
Far more productive. It might just be my style, but Python's functional programming tools, generator expressions, list comprehensions, etc. allow me to accomplish tasks correctly with less code and less time invested than PHP.
I had an analytics project that needed a powerful stats package, so I went with Python+numpy. Then I found Turbogears and loved the syntax. Eventually I discovered coroutines and cooperative multitasking, and there's no going back. I use bottle, gevent, and gunicorn to crank out lean, fast, scalable web apps in record time.
Not if I could help it. PHP's verbose "everything is a long-named function call" syntax is just hard on my eyes at this point. I find it tedious to optimize as well (every page load reinterprets the source code in a default configuration).
Here are a few of the gotchas to be aware of:
For cheap, low-traffic sites, it's much harder to find a web host with a good python environment.
Apache isn't really a typical setup for Python in my experience. Python webapps are usually daemons that are exposed to the public with a reverse proxy webserver in front (nginx is very common). A number of corporate environments balk at new-fangled technology like nginx. It also takes some adjustment to think about your webapps as daemons, and it can take some effort at first to get your daemonizing correct and consistent.
If you use mysql, you will have some pain switching for a while. There just isn't a Python mysql library that is highly compatible with PHP-style mysql queries. For example, most of them don't use the simple "?" syntax for parameterized queries, so you can't just paste your queries over (you have to use printf-style "%s", etc.). Also, just the fact that you actually have to choose and install a mysql library is an extra step over PHP. This no longer bothers me, since I don't use mysql anymore anyway.
This is a broad topic with much, much more to say, but I hope this was helpful.
I'll try my best to answer your questions as best I can:
Did you have more fun with python?
I really enjoy how minimalist python is, having modules with non-redundant naming conventions is really nice. I found this to be especially convenient when reading/debugging other peoples code.
I also love all of the python tricks to do some very elegant things in a single line of code such as list comprehensions and the itertools library.
I tend to develop my applications using mod_wsgi and it took some time to wrap my head around writing thread-safe web applications, but it was really worth it.
I also find unicode to be much less frustrating with python especially with python 3k.
are you as productive as when you're using PHP?
For simple websites python can be less fun to setup and use. One nice feature of PHP that I miss with python is mixing PHP and HTML in the same file. Python has a lot of nice template languages that make this easy as well, but they have to be installed.
what made you change to python?
I became frustrated with a lot of the little nuances of PHP such as strange integer and string conversions and so forth. I also started to feel that PHP was getting very bloated with a lot of methods with inconsistent naming schemes. I was referring to the PHP documentation quite frequently despite having a large portion of the php library memorized.
Would you do a project again in PHP? If so, why?
I would develop a PHP project again, it has a lot of nice features and a great community. Plus I have a lot of experience with PHP. I'd prefer to use python, but if the client wants PHP I'm not going to force something they don't want.
Well, I started with PHP, and have delved into Python recently. I wouldn't say that I've "moved to", but I do use both (still PHP more, but a fair bit of Python as well).
I wouldn't say that I have more "fun" with Python. There are a lot of really cool and easy things that I really wish I could take to PHP. So I guess it could be considered "fun". But I still enjoy PHP, so...
I'm more productive with PHP. I know PHP inside and out. I know most of the little nuances involved in writing effective PHP code. I don't know Python that well (I've maybe written 5k lines of Python)... I know enough to do what I need to, but not nearly as in-depth as PHP.
I wanted to try something new. I never liked Python, but then one day I decided to learn the basics, and that changed my views on it. Now I really like some parts (and can see how it influences what PHP I write)...
I am still doing PHP projects. It's my best language. And IMHO it's better than Python at some web tasks (like high traffic sites). PHP has a built in multi-threaded FastCGI listener. Python you need to find one (there are a bunch out there). But in my benchmarks, Python was never able to get anywhere near as as fast as PHP with FastCGI (The best Py performed it was 25% slower than PHP. The worst was several hundered times, depending on the FCGI library). But that's based on my experience (which admittedly isn't much). I know PHP, so I feel more comfortable committing a large site to it than I would PY...
I run a self-developed private social site for 100+ users. Python was absolutely fantastic for making and running this.
did you have more fun with python?
Most definitely.
are you as productive as when you're using PHP?
Mostly yes. Python coding style, at least for me is so much quicker and easier. But python does sometimes lack in included libraries and documentation over PHP. (But PHP seems second to none in that reguard). Also requires a tad more to get running under apache.
what made you change to python?
Easier to manage code, and quicker development (A good IDE helps there, I use WingIDE for python), as well as improving my python skills for when I switch to non-web based projects.
Would you do a project again in PHP? If so, why?
Perhaps if I were working on a large scale professional project. PHP is so ubiquitous on the web A company would have a much easier time finding a replacement PHP programmer.
Last year I switched job to get away from PHP and work in Python. I'm very much satisfied with the decision I made :)
To answer the individual questions:
did you have more fun with python?
Yes!
are you as productive as when you're using PHP?
More productive I'd say. But the overall increased experience in programming also had something to with that.
what made you change to python?
You are not expected to be a jack of all trades in non-PHP jobs. (Photoshop/Web Design/Flash is required for many PHP jobs, and I hate Flash). And I liked Python/Django a lot.
4. Would you do a project again in PHP? If so, why?
If it's small stuff that's better done without any framework, then yes.
I've never really worked with PHP (nothing major) and come from the .NET world. The project I am currently on requires a lot of Python work and I must say I love it. Very easy and "cool" language, ie. FUN!
.NET will always be my wife but Python is my mistress ;)
yes
yes
curiosity, search for better languages, etc. (actually, I learned them somewhat in parallel many years ago)
yes, if a project requires it explicitly
disclaimer: I never really moved from php.
did you have more fun with python?
Yes. Lot more.
are you as productive as when you're using PHP?
No. I think more.
what made you change to python?
Django.
Would you do a project again in PHP? If so, why?
Only if it is required.
I'm Delphi developer, and I would like to build few web applications, I know about Intraweb, but I think it's not a real tool for web development, maybe for just intranet applications
so I'm considering PHP, Python or ruby, I prefer python because it's better syntax than other( I feel it closer to Delphi), also I want to deploy the application to shared hosting, specially Linux.
so as Delphi developer, what do you choose to develop web application?
Try Morfik http://www.morfik.com/
P.S.
It looked promising a few years ago, but after I digged it deeper I must admit that it's quite limited web development environment for a very basic web development.
Why should an answer be different if the question was asked by a Delphi programmer, than a programmer from any other platform? Any decent language should be fun to learn, regardless of the tool you are using right now.
That said, I myself walked a way from Borland Pascal and Delphi (quite some time ago), over PHP and ASP.NET (using C#). Right now I am working almost exclusively on Ruby (and occasionally Rails) and I am perfectly happy with it. But, then again, it's matter of personal preference: I really enjoy Ruby's pure object-orientation and functional capabilities, as well as dynamical nature of a scripting language. So, it's all up to you and your personal preferences.
Although, one thing I can surely recommend is to stick with one of the major web-players, for pragmatic reasons: PHP, Python, Ruby, ASP.NET or possibly Java. I'm sorry to say that, but I don't think Pascaloid languages have any future anymore.
If you feel like stretching your muscles, you could try out Seaside.
Seaside's a Smalltalk framework (so working with it will feel pretty much like working with Ruby) that lets you write your website just like you'd build a desktop application. You can split your code up into components that you can assemble much like you'd work with TComponents (programmatically, at least).
I agree about Intraweb, but Delphi itself is still a good language to build websites with. You could start a CGI application or an ISAPI-extesion. You could also check out http://xxm.sf.net , it's an open-source project I started that offers a few extra's:
You can mix HTML and Delphi code into the same files (much like PHP)
These files get auto-compiled to a Delphi project so you can see the results by refreshing the web-browser (much like PHP)
You can load the library with a number of 'handlers':
there's a IInternetProtocol implementation to use with InternetExplorer directly (really handy for development
there's an ISAPI extension that loads the library (and auto-updates is, really handy for updates on live-environments)
there's a stand-alone HTTP executable or NT-Service
there's even a FireFox plugin and Apache module in the making.
PHP is the best to start, but as experienced programmer you may want to look at Python, because PHP is a C style language. Python would be easier after Pascal, I think.
Take a look at examples:
On PHP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Php#Syntax
On Python: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(programming_language)#Syntax_and_semantics
Note, that Ruby and Python are rarely used by them selves in web-development. Usually Django and Ruby on railes frameworks are used. In PHP there are several variants. You can code from the scratch, or also use some framework.
I used to code on PHP for about five years and now started to learn Django (python based framework) and I think it's the best thing there is. Take a look: http://djangoproject.com/
Only good answer - C# ;) Seriously ;)
Why? Anders Hejlsberg. He made it. It is the direct continuation of his work that started with Turbo Pascal and went over to Delphi... then Microsoft hired him and he moved from Pascal to C (core langauge) and made C#.
Read it up on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Hejlsberg
If you come from Delphi, you will love it ;)
PHP is a pretty simple answer.
One reason is there is both Delphi4PHP (the rather cryptic IDE licensed by Embarcadero which in my estimation is really only for Web Apps (not for doing whole site)s) and PHP4Delphi (the pretty awesome Delphi Component that lets you compile your Delphi code to PHP Extensions).
I'm a long-time Delphi developer myself and had to do some web work recently, I decided to use ASP.Net with Delphi Prism and found myself right at home since I didn't have to learn a new language, just a new framework.
Actually, the answer probably is ASP.NET using C#. You'll see (ex-)Borland engineering syntax that looks quite familiar coming from Delphi. To deploy on Linux have a look at the Mono project.
I have done a fairly large (4-5 FTE) project based on webhub (www.href.com). I can certainly advise this if it is a webapp for internal use.
My friend and I are planning on building a sort of a forum type of webapp.
We've used the major PHP frameworks but we're really thinking about using Python specifically the Pylons framework for our app. Although we're competent PHP programmers, we're somewhat noobs at Python (We could create practical scripts and such). But the thing is we really want to learn Python but by testing Pylons out it seems to be really difficult with all the numerous imports and all.
What would you suggest? What advice could you give to us? How would you suggest that we learn Pylons?
Decide what you want to put your focus on, being productive or learning a new language:
If you want to learn Pylons and Python, use Pylon and Python.
If you want to deliver a stable forum software, use PHP, because that's what you're competent at.
Note: I should add that this is not meant to imply that you cannot be productive with Python or Pylon in general. All I'm saying is, in your case, you will be more productive with PHP, because you know it.
Don't be scared off by imports in python. They're much more common when coding in python than PHP in general, and this is good because your namespace never gets polluted with stuff you aren't expecting, unless you do from foo import * (so don't do that). I think you'll find that the structure pylons gives you will be invaluable. There are frameworks in PHP as well, but if you want to learn python anyway, I see no reason you shouldn't dive in with Pylons.
I don't know about Pylons but I've been in a similar situation and built a site using Django. I learned enough about Python in an environment that I was familiar with (web apps) that I now go to Python as my first choice.
Many many times have we had this discussion at my job. We use PHP and everyone here would love to switch to python. Even for our new web projects PHP delivers, and since we use it every day that is what we use. Many things in PHP irk me, and I love python, that said Im a big fan of "use the best tool for the job".
Good code is possible in PHP (and horrible horrible code too), so use what is the best tool for you, and for this job. If however this webapp is a hobby and/or not mission-critical software I would fully recommend python if only to learn a new language.
What all is involved if I wanted to switch from PHP to asp.net? I have basicly no knowledge of asp or other languages besides php and some javascript.
What would be the best place to start learning more?
What is needed to host an asp site?
What is it developed with?
Is there an equivalent to php.net for a resource?
I think a good place to start would be to take one of your existing PHP projects, and rewrite it in ASP.Net. That way you wouldn't really be tasked with coming up with something new, and learning a language at the same time. However, don't just try to do a line by line conversion. ASP.Net has a much different programming model than PHP. So you'd be much better off looking at the end product, and trying to produce the same thing, without necessarily producing the same code.
google asp.net c# tutorial. seriously
download ms VS express edition(free) http://www.microsoft.com/express/vwd/
do a project. nothing like learning on the job
I did this switch several times. If you have good grasp of OO and the most common design patterns, you won't have too much of a problem to grasp the dot.net languages.
b.t.w I really REALLY suggest you consider only C#.
Best way to start is take a Wrox book and start learning it. Do not start directly from asp.net, but rather from console applications.
The book will show you how to install a development environment, which is an inseparable thing from the dot.ent env.
If what the book suggests is not the MS express environment, I suggest you use Express.
As far as something like php.net, well, MSDN is by far a better tool then php.net and this is from a PHP freak and ex-Zender.
To sum it up, just do the exercises in the book, it will be OK
I've written PHP web projects for several years and considered myself intermediate with PHP. I recently wrote an application (in PHP) for a company that got noticed by the programming department, and they had me transition to a job programming in C# and .NET.
My first reaction was very standoffish; I learned to program in an anti-Microsoft environment and mindset. The last thing I wanted to do was learn something in .NET.
After several months of forcing myself to learn C# and OOP I have to say it's actually a wonderful thing. At least for developing Windows applications. I'd always wanted to do some desktop applications and this has been a great way to do it.
But so far nothing has involved ASP.net, and now I have a project which requires some web output. I'm struggling with learning ASP, and the fact of the matter is I am tempted to write the web portion of it in PHP. For me, C# makes sense for Windows and OOP, but for quick data-parsing applications on the web, PHP is quick and gets the job done.
I am going to keep working on the ASP thing though, specifically looking at MVC. Another question on SO got me interested in focusing on MVC. I've been perusing books and watching tutorial videos, and so far I am hopelessly confused.
Perhaps it will be something I look back on and am grateful for having made the effort -- like learning C# in the first place. Right now, the ASP approach to web coding seems foreign, despite knowing more about C# and OOP than I did a year ago.
I made the switch from script-based server side languages (Classic ASP and PHP) to .NET a number of years back. If I recall, the hardest part was understanding the tight integration between client-side events and server-side event handling. Once that clicked the rest was just an exercise in learning new syntax (that was actually more like C++ which I learned in college).