My friend and I are planning on building a sort of a forum type of webapp.
We've used the major PHP frameworks but we're really thinking about using Python specifically the Pylons framework for our app. Although we're competent PHP programmers, we're somewhat noobs at Python (We could create practical scripts and such). But the thing is we really want to learn Python but by testing Pylons out it seems to be really difficult with all the numerous imports and all.
What would you suggest? What advice could you give to us? How would you suggest that we learn Pylons?
Decide what you want to put your focus on, being productive or learning a new language:
If you want to learn Pylons and Python, use Pylon and Python.
If you want to deliver a stable forum software, use PHP, because that's what you're competent at.
Note: I should add that this is not meant to imply that you cannot be productive with Python or Pylon in general. All I'm saying is, in your case, you will be more productive with PHP, because you know it.
Don't be scared off by imports in python. They're much more common when coding in python than PHP in general, and this is good because your namespace never gets polluted with stuff you aren't expecting, unless you do from foo import * (so don't do that). I think you'll find that the structure pylons gives you will be invaluable. There are frameworks in PHP as well, but if you want to learn python anyway, I see no reason you shouldn't dive in with Pylons.
I don't know about Pylons but I've been in a similar situation and built a site using Django. I learned enough about Python in an environment that I was familiar with (web apps) that I now go to Python as my first choice.
Many many times have we had this discussion at my job. We use PHP and everyone here would love to switch to python. Even for our new web projects PHP delivers, and since we use it every day that is what we use. Many things in PHP irk me, and I love python, that said Im a big fan of "use the best tool for the job".
Good code is possible in PHP (and horrible horrible code too), so use what is the best tool for you, and for this job. If however this webapp is a hobby and/or not mission-critical software I would fully recommend python if only to learn a new language.
Related
I'm looking to develop a Win32 desktop app - a one off, for a personal need. A GUI is not scrictly needed, though would be a bonus.
What is needed:
The ability to monitor the window title of a specific window.
The ability to run DOS commands when this window title changes.
I hope my programming ability is up to this - I feel I'm pretty good with PHP, but I'm not ready to spend time learning OO for this one-off project.
What non OO (or at least not mandatorily OO) languages are there for desktop apps that might be suitable for a beginner on a task like?
Any other, more hacky approaches are welcome too - batch scripts etc.
Many thanks for any advice,
Jack
Whether or not the language supports OO doesn't really matter for your purposes. After all, PHP supports objects and you seem to do just fine with it.
Personally, i'd recommend Java or C# to get started with. The communities for these two languages are huge and there are plenty of tutorials online to help you get started.
It's extremely easy to get starting writing C# with Visual Studio Express. And a good hello world tutorial.
Also, if you stick with C# you can take advantage of WMI which will allow you to do everything you need for this project (and much much more).
Lastly, most windows machines will be able to run your application without having to install anything extra and Visual Studio builds the .exe for you as part of the build process.
You can use PHP for desktop apps if you really want to. Just install the php CLI.
You can even do a gui for your desktop app in php: http://gtk.php.net/
EDIT: I'm not sure how easily you can call win32 api functions from PHP, however. There look to be a few articles about this online and a SO question: How to call winapi functions from PHP?
I would vote for Python using the included TkInter module for GUI. Dead simple to use.
Widgets aren't the prettiest looking, but development is rapid.
EDIT: I mistook "non-OO" in the question for "OO". Python is most definitely not "non-OO", but but is very well suited to doing what you asked.
You could write this in pretty much any mainstream language supported by Windows. C or C++ are obvious choices. C# and Visual Basic .NET are going to require the .NET Framework ... not a bad thing, but perhaps more than you want to tackle for a simple project. Come to think of it, you might be able to do this with JScript or VBScript, although I'm not clear on what API functions you have easy access to. And I have to believe that it's possible to do with PowerShell with just a little work.
Your options are wide open.
F#
It's an awesome piece of work, has access to the Framework class libraries, supports GUI development, really easy parallel programming, compiles to IL (same as C#) but has a really concise functional syntax.
So I have access to a dedicated server and want to finally create my game - it's a browser based game, fairly simple. I know PHP and MySQL fairly well and would want to integrate with them on the front end.
The question is what is a good server-side language to use either as a constant process or with cron to interface with the MySQL database to do calculations?
Ideally my requirements are:
As short a learning curve as
possible.
Easiest access to MySQL as
possible.
As hard to shoot yourself
in the foot as possible.
I'd like to avoid C/C++ if possible for the above 'shoot yourself in the foot' problems. It'd also be nice to have a secondary language to use personally so I may take it beyond this limited scope.
Thanks in advance for any insights!
You could use commandline php with cron. The great advantage of that is that you can reuse libraries that you write for your game and you already know the language. I don't think it's performance is great though.
Besides that there are a ton of languages you might choose, Python and Java are popular.
There are two good options here:
PHP
PHP is a server side language, and if you design the frontend with some robust classes, you can reuse the classes for the command-line daemon. This allows you to have a more standardized application suite, which will be easier to modify in the future. PHP can access MySQL, and since you already know it, the learning curve will be minimal.
Python
Python is an excellent server side language for an application like this. It can talk to any SQL database with a standardized instruction set, called DB API 2.0. This means taht if at any point you want to change from MySQL to PostgresSQL, you simple change:
import my_mysql_library as sql
to:
import my_postgres_library as sql
And your application won't need any other code changes. Python also contains many libraries that might come in handy, and if optimized correctly, will be faster than PHP.
Conclusion
Personally, I would use Python, for the following reasons:
Learning Experience; Programming is always about learning. At any opportunity, use a language or tool you don't already know so that you can learn it.
Language Preference; After programming in both PHP and Python, I can honestly say that there is no situation where I would prefer to use PHP over Python. Not one.
Available Libraries; Python has a very robust community, and a lot of useful libraries and packages (such as NumPy) that make things much easier for you.
With both languages you could have them run intermittently via a cron job, or you could have them run as a Daemon (which is as easy as running the script(s) while piping your output to a black hole, such as /dev/null)
Another great option for your server side scripting is perl. It has a bit of a learning curve at the start but becomes a very fast language to script in.
A great resource is http://perldoc.perl.org/
I'm Delphi developer, and I would like to build few web applications, I know about Intraweb, but I think it's not a real tool for web development, maybe for just intranet applications
so I'm considering PHP, Python or ruby, I prefer python because it's better syntax than other( I feel it closer to Delphi), also I want to deploy the application to shared hosting, specially Linux.
so as Delphi developer, what do you choose to develop web application?
Try Morfik http://www.morfik.com/
P.S.
It looked promising a few years ago, but after I digged it deeper I must admit that it's quite limited web development environment for a very basic web development.
Why should an answer be different if the question was asked by a Delphi programmer, than a programmer from any other platform? Any decent language should be fun to learn, regardless of the tool you are using right now.
That said, I myself walked a way from Borland Pascal and Delphi (quite some time ago), over PHP and ASP.NET (using C#). Right now I am working almost exclusively on Ruby (and occasionally Rails) and I am perfectly happy with it. But, then again, it's matter of personal preference: I really enjoy Ruby's pure object-orientation and functional capabilities, as well as dynamical nature of a scripting language. So, it's all up to you and your personal preferences.
Although, one thing I can surely recommend is to stick with one of the major web-players, for pragmatic reasons: PHP, Python, Ruby, ASP.NET or possibly Java. I'm sorry to say that, but I don't think Pascaloid languages have any future anymore.
If you feel like stretching your muscles, you could try out Seaside.
Seaside's a Smalltalk framework (so working with it will feel pretty much like working with Ruby) that lets you write your website just like you'd build a desktop application. You can split your code up into components that you can assemble much like you'd work with TComponents (programmatically, at least).
I agree about Intraweb, but Delphi itself is still a good language to build websites with. You could start a CGI application or an ISAPI-extesion. You could also check out http://xxm.sf.net , it's an open-source project I started that offers a few extra's:
You can mix HTML and Delphi code into the same files (much like PHP)
These files get auto-compiled to a Delphi project so you can see the results by refreshing the web-browser (much like PHP)
You can load the library with a number of 'handlers':
there's a IInternetProtocol implementation to use with InternetExplorer directly (really handy for development
there's an ISAPI extension that loads the library (and auto-updates is, really handy for updates on live-environments)
there's a stand-alone HTTP executable or NT-Service
there's even a FireFox plugin and Apache module in the making.
PHP is the best to start, but as experienced programmer you may want to look at Python, because PHP is a C style language. Python would be easier after Pascal, I think.
Take a look at examples:
On PHP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Php#Syntax
On Python: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(programming_language)#Syntax_and_semantics
Note, that Ruby and Python are rarely used by them selves in web-development. Usually Django and Ruby on railes frameworks are used. In PHP there are several variants. You can code from the scratch, or also use some framework.
I used to code on PHP for about five years and now started to learn Django (python based framework) and I think it's the best thing there is. Take a look: http://djangoproject.com/
Only good answer - C# ;) Seriously ;)
Why? Anders Hejlsberg. He made it. It is the direct continuation of his work that started with Turbo Pascal and went over to Delphi... then Microsoft hired him and he moved from Pascal to C (core langauge) and made C#.
Read it up on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Hejlsberg
If you come from Delphi, you will love it ;)
PHP is a pretty simple answer.
One reason is there is both Delphi4PHP (the rather cryptic IDE licensed by Embarcadero which in my estimation is really only for Web Apps (not for doing whole site)s) and PHP4Delphi (the pretty awesome Delphi Component that lets you compile your Delphi code to PHP Extensions).
I'm a long-time Delphi developer myself and had to do some web work recently, I decided to use ASP.Net with Delphi Prism and found myself right at home since I didn't have to learn a new language, just a new framework.
Actually, the answer probably is ASP.NET using C#. You'll see (ex-)Borland engineering syntax that looks quite familiar coming from Delphi. To deploy on Linux have a look at the Mono project.
I have done a fairly large (4-5 FTE) project based on webhub (www.href.com). I can certainly advise this if it is a webapp for internal use.
We are about to start a new Web2/AJAX app and are trying to decide if its worth the time and effort learning Ruby/RubyOnRails instead of PHP, CodeIgnitor and JQuery we currently use.
The key issues are clean/fast/modern AJAX UI, robust error handling, ans maintainability.
I would appreciate unbiased (if thats at all possible talking languages/frameworks) comments from experienced PHP and RUBY developers.
I can't say too much about Ruby, but I can say that I often feel like PHP gets a bad rap. PHP is what you make of it. Yes, there is a lot of awful PHP code out there, but you know, it was mostly written by people who would have written awful Ruby, or awful Python. PHP has such a wide audience that programmers of all stripes and abilities are using it, and many of them are writing bad programs.
That said, you can write good programs in PHP. Do you have good developers? If so, you can certainly write good code in PHP.
PHP has a terrible reputation because it is so accessible. Anyone can start writing PHP, and most hosting solutions offer PHP these days, so there are a lot of non-programmer types writing programs in PHP. These programs lack proper computer science discipline.
There is a very widespread movement within the PHP community to move toward readable, well formed code as PHP starts to adopt modern language features. With PHP5, OOP became a practical reality and with that an explosion of books and material written about OOP best practices and development patterns. While PHP is often used to write malformed sloppy spaghetti code, the language facilities are there to allow developers to program in development paradigms like MVC, OOP, and TDD.
Not to mention, PEAR has greatly improved the quality and accessibility of community scripts. PHP's strongest asset is its community, and it has been becoming stronger and more disciplined. In many ways, PHP is very much like JavaScript--it had a very sloppy beginning from which the developers and community have been trying to recover. JavaScript is a very sloppy language, but there are some extremely powerful parts of that language that have brought it some well deserved respect in the age of Ajax and interactive web applications.
Languages like Ruby and Python are chock full of things geared toward computer programmers. If you hire a Python or a Ruby programmer, just by virtue of knowing the language that programmer is many, many times more likely to appreciate clean, well organized code than a PHP developer. That is part of the culture of those languages, and the people who evangelize them.
There is nothing inherently better about Ruby or Ruby on Rails in my opinion. Rails was the first mainstream MVC development framework, but its popularity and success has catalyzed the development of similar frameworks in every language imaginable. The choice to write Rails in Ruby isn't an indication that Ruby is better than PHP, which many could argue. Considering the time in which Rails was written and 37signals' fascination with obscure things, I can understand the move completely. At the time, web scripting languages were pretty lame, and 37signals was looking for a language that catered more to the needs of application programmers, not scripters.
You're not being held back using a PHP framework like Zend Framework, CakePHP, or symfony. CakePHP and symfony are both directly modelled after Rails, even if they aren't direct ports. Akelos is an actual port of Rails to PHP. Zend Framework is the most fully featured framework I've used so far. Don't be afraid to experiment, but jumping ship to a completely different platform isn't necessary and it won't change the way you do business. It's the same business in a different dialect.
The most important feature of a language is how much you enjoy using it. If you enjoy the language that you use, not only will your life be better, you will write better code and be more productive. Of course, this is completely subjective; however, I've never heard any first-class programmers talking about how much they love PHP.
Of course, getting to the level of fluency in a language / framework combination that you really know whether it is going to float your boat takes a big investment of time. In my opinion, the time that you spend will make you a better programmer even if in the end you decide that you like a different tool better, so, go for it!
I think it's not about the language but the disciplines that are used in the community. If you are PHP developer who doesn't unit or functional test his code, nobody cares. There are bunch of PHP developers like that. If you are Rails developer and doesn't test your code automatically you're weird, something must be very wrong with you.
Ruby on Rails seems to me more than a framework, all the tools that come with the community. It is recommended that you use some kind of semiautomatic deployment tool like Capistrano. If you're not, you're weird again. And so on.
I agree with dicroce that you can shoot in your leg with both languages/frameworks. You could go with PHP and try to use some of the tools originally ment to Rails and i believe you get a great result.
I've been doing html, css and javascript for quite a long time, mostly for my very own enjoyment. I would say I know fairly much, I've created many simple games and apps and experiments with javascript. However there is only so much that is possible to do in the browser, for any more "complete" websites I am constantly confronted with my ignorance on server side programming.
So, what do I need. I need to get my head around how to use databases and how to use some server side programming language, I guess. What is the right choice? What should I avoid?
Thanks.
PHP and MySQL have a pretty low barrier to entry (they're both free and ubiquitous). I'd start with those, since most hosts provide them for you. As an added bonus, they work really well together (and PHP isn't very hard to learn coming from a web development background).
Head First SQL is a great book for learning MySQL. All of the examples in the book are done on MySQL. The book even explains where to get it and how to install it. As for PHP, the introductory tutorial at official website is the best place to learn it.
Update: Head First PHP & MySQL is now available. I haven't read this one yet, but other books in the series and by the same author are great for learning new languages from scratch.
Download Python. Learn the Python language. Learn Object-Oriented programming.
Python includes SQLite, this makes it easier to Learn the SQL language.
Download the Django framework. This makes it easy to write server-side applications that work simply and reliably.
I would suggest PHP. Not because it's the best, most modern or cleanest language out there, but because it is easy to learn for someone coming from pure HTML.
You begin by just adding tiny bits of PHP to your regular HTML and magic happens :)
Ruby is a fantastic language and the frameworks for web stuff generally teach you some good practices. Try it. The Learn to program book uses Ruby, maybe you'd like to check it out.
I noticed in your question you mention that you've been using javascript. If you're comfortable progamming javascript, I've recently begun working with server side javascript in the form of EJScript on linux and using jscript on windows. It's been fairly painless, and the documentation has been pretty good so far on both.
If you're more interested in learning this with another technology then Django & Python or ASP.NET & C# (or IronPython) are both fairly low barrier to entry platforms available on windows, *nix, etc...
I would say that if you're comfortable working in Linux, then go for PHP and MySQL. If you aren't comfortable working in Linux, then download the free Visual Web Developer version of Visual Studio Express, and get started using that. This lets you program in VB.Net or C#, and use the .Net web development framework. It's really miles ahead of anything PHP in terms of how nice a platform it is to work on. There's also a free developer edition of SQL Server that lets you store up to 4 GB of data.
There's plenty of .Net hosts out there now too. Although, due to increased license costs, Windows hosting plans will usually cost more and give you less space/bandwidth than Linux hosting plans, you can still get enough room to play around with and deploy some apps on the web. If you develop something really cool, and outgrow what your hosting account provides, it's probably time to upgrade to a VPS, and post ads on your site to start paying the bills
I'd recommend PHP for folks who are familiar with HTML but are newish to programming. Here's why:
I'm currently an ASP.Net developer, and I think that ASP.Net abstracts waaaaay to much to make it a good first programming environment. I say learn how to generate and manipulate straight HTML with a language like PHP instead of trying to understand GridViews, etc., which have no bearing or relevance to programming in the broader sense.
I wouldn't say ASP.Net is "the Dark Path" or anything, but if you start out by learning it, you'll tend to favor the warm and insulating arms of the framework. ASP.Net is pretty much a code-generator when compared to more explicit (some would say reckless, messy, and tedious, but I'm not one of them) methods like PHP.
With PHP you'll see the effect your code has on the actual HTML when you view source. With an ASP.Net page, you'll be baffled by the amount and complexity of the HTML it spits out.
After you get your hands dirty in PHP, you can explore the pros and cons of frameworks like ASP.Net that "do a lot of the work for you".
I was exactly in your situation 3 to 4 years ago and, like some of the commentators suggest, I tried PHP because of its low barrier of entry.
That was a mistake! Oh sure I was able to achieve some things here and there, including using a contact form from a book which was so flawed that it was later hijacked by big time spammers and got my domain banned from most email servers out there.
Later on I tried to learn how to create dotabase driven sites with object oriented programming following the guidance of the excellent books, blog posts, and forums from Sitepoint and other sources. It was just too hard for my little brain. I just could not do it.
So what happened? 2 1/2 years ago I decided to learn Rails, which had just turned v. 1.1. It has been fun since the beginning and extremely rewarding. Working with Ruby is a pleasure, much easier to learn than PHP, and the Rails framework is so well put together that you can, with little effort, produce some very elaborate web sites with advanced features all while learning how to do proper object oriented web programming.
I used my new knowledge to recreate from scratch the site of my non-profit organization (with a new domain ;-) and, with a friend who is a talented designer, created a web development firm.
Don't get me wrong, it's not that easy, if you want to learn programming you need to put a lot of effort into it but in my own experience Rails can bring you some instant results while letting you get deeper and deeper over time.
I recommend two main sources of knowledge:
The excellent, official Rails
guides.
The free screencasts
from Railscasts.
Whatever your choice will be I wish you the best and a fun and fulfilling experience
I recently came upon this question myself. I really liked the way PHP integrates with HTML making designing a site more natural in my opinion. Design your site as you would with static content and then switch the static with the dynamic. However, I wanted to choose a "good" language. I looked at PHP, Ruby, Perl, and Python, as they are the most popular, open source options. I didn't need any powerhorses, if you will, like Ruby on Rails or Django, since I just wanted to mess around with server side stuff and some SQL—nothing serious. I don't remember why nor do I care to remember why, but I chose Python. But I still wanted that integration with HTML. I came across Karrigell. It's a neat piece of Python that essentially handles the integration. It comes with a little web server which you can use on its own or use something like mod_proxy with lighttpd. The devs don't limit you to only Python inside HTML, though. Their server parses: Python inside HTML, HTML inside Python, plain ol' Python scripts, and Karrigell services. It may not integrate as well as PHP does, but it's pretty damn good.