I've been developing a site to be able to curate sports media using Django, and that's going reasonably well, but my friend that I'm working with has some of our required functionality (some information display, page-level stuff) going with PHP. Is there an easy way to integrate those, like maybe running the php through the Django templates, or should we try and convert some the functions to one language or the other?
In such cases, I think, it makes sense to make some kind of internal interface through which your sites would communicate, and expose only one of them to public. That would make everything more maintainable.
For example, your friend can make his PHP pages to output information in JSON or YAML. In corresponding Django views, you'll have little to no logic, just making internal HTTP requests to these pages, and basically passing the data to templates.
This way, you'll have output via Django templates, and some logic still in PHP. If PHP code does some work with database or performs computation that can't be converted easily enough to Python, and you have limited time, this option may be the best.
Though, I guess, it depends a lot on the architecture of the project, especially the PHP part. There's not enough information to say what's the best option for you.
Don't mix languages if you have any other option. Honestly, I don't think the type of integration you're imagining is even possible. About the closest you would ever get would be two separate websites that shared a common look and feel and passed info back and forth to each other. At the end of the day, though, there would always be a separation of management and data.
There's some pretty robust PHP frameworks out there. Assuming your friend is using one of those, you'll need to decide which best fits with the time and skills you both have to devote to the project. If your friend is not using a framework, the decision is simple: move everything over to Django.
Related
What I would propose would probably sound strange, but I have my reasons for it.
For a long time, we've had this Spring based API, which originated as an abstract set of REST services for CRUD functionality. With time however, we started building business and presentation layers on top until we reached a state of a dead end. Do not get me wrong, Spring/Hibernate are great frameworks, and being built on top of the JVM has its definite advantages, including performance over other web technologies, such as PHP. Compared to PHP, it gives us a much deeper way of controlling aspects such as transactioning, multithreading, dealing with byte data, control over native C++ applications, using JNI, etc.
Where the stack clearly hits a hard wall, is where the requirements get changed most often, namely the business and presentation layers. Turning the applciation into a modern, user-centered social applciation, we've experienced the toughest challenge in out careers. Java EE presentation technologies are tough to work with. Also, changing the business requirements became a tremendously long cycling because of the traditional hurdles in building testing and deploying massive Java applications.
It also felt like for a large part, we are trying to reinvent the wheel. In the PHP world, so many projects exist already, which give you a complete management system, agnostic to any kind of backend system (mapping hooks to REST/SOAP endpoints) . Many of them have all these functionalities ready, allow for admin-friendly change of scenarious, and rules, have templating, etc. Plus, being PHP based means absolutely no time wasted in building and deploying. Write the change, test, asert that it works, and switch.
Our idea now is to find a way to move the business and presentation layers in such a kind of front-server PHP-based application, and leave the pure backend stuff to Spring/Hibernate. We have a few concerns though, coming from our relative inexperience with Spring.
If we implement the business methods using PHP methods, how do we keep transactional security? I mean if a business method has to make three separate HTTP requests to the JAVA, how can we guarantee that they will all be executed in the same transaction, DB-wise?
Is there a way to use proxies or promise objects between both systems? For instance, if the PHP business method needs to call a Spring search method get a collection of objects from the database, and then pass it on to another spring method, this will mean that teh whole collection will have to be sent back and forth. Perhaps, one could store it in a session object on the JAVA side, and simply sent an empty proxy back to the frontend, which the frontend can bass back to another jav method.
A lot of our Spring based functionailities rely on a structure of plugins, using Spring events. How can we make so that our frontend server also gets notified on every ackend event that happens.
I have two ideas here: a post-processing-filter that simply makes a POST request to a controller on the frontend server, using some naming convention.
or ... using some kind of a message queue, such as JMS or RabbitMQ, or why not even something like Reddis, where one can watch data for changes
Anyone who has done that before? Is this a good idea in general? Any suggestions how to resolve the aforementioned issues?
This is not what you asked, but I think it's worth saying that some of the problems you are experiencing with Java are problems that most experienced Java developers faced some day, and most have found some solution. For instance, you can use Arquillian to do a "faster" TDD in Java. And you can use JRebel to do a "code-and-refresh" approach, like in PHP. Modern IDEs also helps in refactoring, something that helps in the "requirements change" scenario.
Granted, the presentation part is still a big problem with Java. I personally don't like JSF, and (to me), most of the other presentation technologies are either non-intuitive or they are cumbersome.
I would say that this is the reason why a lot of Java developers are becoming adopters of HTML5 and Javascript (backbone.js, underscore.js, jquery, ...) for the frontend, with REST in the backend. There's no need to have PHP in the middle.
I'm afraid I cannot answer your other questions, but perhaps a good start would be to see if PHP could be run from inside a Java EE container? I know this works for Ruby and Python apps, as JRuby and Jython would take care of the bridge between the two world.
Largely what you are trying to do is what we call: SOFEA
In this case PHP is your frontend and Java is your service layer.
Concern 1
Transactions over traditional REST or WS are a PITA.
Either consider aggregating your service calls to do more work so that the whole entire transaction is in one service calls or have Java handle your frontend. Otherwise see Concern 3 with Finagle.
Concern 2
I recommend you stay stateless and do REST or RCP.
It sounds like your concerned with speed which I think you shouldn't worry about till its a problem. However if you do want to do user based caching of objects I would use Redis and its pub/sub feature (or RabbitMQ + memcache).
Concern 3
Use RabbitMQ, or Redis, or/and Finagle.
MY final Opinion
I don't think you need PHP particularly if you know Java.
So much of the web app world today is moving towards Javascript (in the client) I don't see any benefit to using something like PHP serving pages when there are better options like Node.js or just sticking with Java.
And #jpkrohling is right... templating and frotend used to suck in Java but its gotten much better particularly since most of your UI code will be in Javascript anyway.
If you need an example of more modern web stuff in Java have a look at this project: MWA and also by the same author: Handlebars in Java.
To sum it up my opinion and go back to SOFEA: backend = Java and frontend = Javascript
Haven't done this before, not sure if it's a good idea, but here are some thoughts on your questions:
First of all, in the PHP world, each request (whether it uses keep-alive or not) is run as an isolated process, so this scenario is typically unheard of; it's possible to use persistent database connections, but any non-committed transactions are automatically rolled back when the request is done. Now, this is where my knowledge about Spring is lacking, because I'm not sure whether Java can keep a database connection in the same state between requests as long as the same HTTP connection is used; if so, you can use PHP + cURL to perform three HTTP requests while reusing the network connection.
Object (un)marshaling between PHP and Java will probably not work very well; a representation of the collection would have to be made in the form of perhaps a result identifier that can be fetched via REST by PHP and passed back to Java as an opaque string.
It should be noted that PHP requests are typically short-lived, which makes it a good candidate for horizontal scaling; long running processes, such as those for Pub/Sub systems, are therefore seen less often. Personally I prefer using the alternative of sending HTTP requests so that the frontend caching can be abstracted away from the Java service.
I'll add more when I think of anything else, do let me know if my answer gives you more questions :)
There is definitely no straightforward way out. You have to re-write your backend controller layer which exposes REST calls to PHP. You need to group some fine grained services and make them coarse grained.
A word of advise - you can make things work at the end day with tweaking here and there, introducing a queue or another framework or library etc - but you would have also introduced lot of Accidental complexity..
Things can get real nasty in future during maintenance, bug fixes, upgrades etc
If speed of development is a concern, explore other alternative like Play Framework 1.2.x framework, so that you can re-use your server side code as it is.
I first learned web programming with php a while back. It has some features that I find very helpful, but the overall language is not something I enjoy, just as a matter of personal preference. I am wondering what alternatives I could use to provide similar functionality using a different underlying programming language (Python? Ruby?).
What I am looking for:
general purpose programming capability
in-line server-side code embedded in HTML (i.e. I want to be able to make my documents pure HTML if desired, rather than demanding special syntax even where I don't want dynamic content)
access to request parameters
ability to send headers, set cookies, etc
Preferably:
does not require a separate server process
easy to connect with Apache
Does anyone have any suggestions?
One thing I tried to do was embedded Ruby (erb) through CGI. This looked like a good fit on paper. Unfortunately, I was not able to get it to work, because I was following a few different guides and the result of combining them did not work out. At any rate, it seems this would not allow me to set arbitrary headers (and more importantly, use sessions and cookies).
Note: I'm not looking for a full web framework at the moment. Just relatively small amounts of dynamic content among otherwise HTML pages.
Thanks!
You've hit on the big reason why PHP is so popular - it has all of those pieces in a server-embeddable package. There aren't really many solutions with its ease of deployment; PHP is written specifically for what you want, which is both its strength and weakness. It's why it's such a weak general-purpose language, and why everyone and their dog knows it. It's everywhere, and the barrier to entry is near zero.
PHP is a language plus templating plus a web framework all baked into one package. To get an equivalent, you're going to need a web framework, even if it's a small one. Something like Sinatra is a super lightweight way to do similar in Ruby, though it requires a separate server process.
You could look at something like Perl with cgi.pm, but it may be a step in the wrong direction if you're wanting something cleaner than PHP.
I don't know Python packages well enough to offer suggestions there, but Twisted makes it easy to bind a Python program to a web interface. That does end up running in its own server process, though.
You'll need to do a little more work than your standard PHP deploy if you want to use something besides PHP, but that's often a choice that people consider to be a reasonable tradeoff for gains in productivity.
Python Flask is a good web framework: it fits your requirements, easy to learn, and scales gracefully. Go through the tutorial to see!
I have three suggestions.
The first is Ruby on Rails - It's pretty fun once you get into it.. I would recommend going through Rails for Zombies to get a general idea of whether you like it or not.
http://railsforzombies.org/
It's really easy to get something up and running on Heroku for free, so you don't have to spend any money to get something up on the web..
My second suggestion is one I'm just trying out called Node.js. I'd recommend watching this video to get an idea of what it's about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo_B4LTHi3I
If you're into Javascript, I think you'll get it right away. You can also build an open source Node.js project on www.cloud9ide.com which is pretty nifty too.
A third one, if you're into learning Java, is "Play". A cool video on this is:
http://vimeo.com/7087610
I haven't used this much, but it's on my "to do" list of things to check out. Overall, I suggest just dipping your toes in the water for a bunch of different frameworks and get an idea of how they work and then you'll naturally pursue whatever makes the most sense to you. Good luck!
I'd say given your requirement
Just relatively small amounts of dynamic content among otherwise HTML pages.
then, PHP is going to be hard to beat for getting going quickly and a minimum of learning overhead. It avoids all the CGI issues that you would otherwise have to deal with, and is in fact its own templating language. That's why so many get started with it. Once you get past the point of your goal of mixing a little programming logic into HTML pages, and developing more flexible, maintainable and testable applications, then frameworks such as Rails, Django and others will be worth your time to learn.
Using Scheme as a web development language meets your criteria, with a caveat: instead of inline code embedded in HTML, you have inline code embedded in the Lisp-ish representation of HTML called s-expressions. (There is a one-to-one correspondence between HTML and is s-exp equivalent; they can be interconverted with one function call.) So the static parts of your page and the code share the same syntax - something I really like about Scheme.
> (sxml->xml `(div (p "It's been: " (i ,(current-time)) " seconds")))
<div>
<p>
It's been: <i>1339772791</i> seconds
</p>
</div>
My question is in bold (see below) but I hope to provide some insight into my issues just in case it helps anyone who could answer my question.
I'm not sure which framework or language is the best for this job but I'd like to make an app that has two or three independently scrollable areas, similar to a 2 column template, that are all dynamically updated. Users can populate each list separately as they go and yah know ... I really don't want the app to move slowly in any way. It needs to be jerky with almost knee-jerk reactions to input.
I've read some interesting things about speeds for each language that I'm considering (php and python - possibly java or ruby) and well, I can't really decide for myself since I don't yet know what's going on to create any slowdowns.
The app would be very simple requiring basic information on a user and letting the user basically grow their own database of lists themselves. Some fancy things would happen on the site per the users input or list updates like color changes or pictures and numbers that change .. maybe a graph or something.
All that said, I hope my question(s) is simple and answerable:
What is a useful programming language and/or framework for making and handling user created hierarchical lists that would ultimately grow in complexity? And how does the language differ from the others for tasks like ones as described in this post?
Just trying to find the right/best/effective tool for this particular job.
By the way, I'm new to programming but have covered the basic tutorials for python (plus some django) and php via youtube mostly - I've got a few books in the queue. be gentle
I don't think you will conclusively be able to decide on a language for your task based on clear evidence of it outperforming others for similar task.
There's too many variables to factor in.
My take is, a well built app, whatever the technology would perform as well as the other one with different technologies, but built well. The difference wouldn't be much to make a fuss over.
Some things that are of note:
The client side code, HTML, CSS and Javascript would need to be top notch. You need to
Combine that with a good host, a nicely constructed and tuned database, a good lean method of communication back and forth between client and server.
Use gzip, caching, minifying and combining scripts, stylesheets, make fewer http requestes,
Architect the application with performance in mind from the get go.
If you are new to programming then the language/framework will be the least of your problems. You tried a little Python and some PHP. Which language did you find easier to grasp? Whichever one that was, pick it and just start writing.
As you work on your project and become a better programmer you can revisit the language/framework debate (although, to be honest, the programmer influences the site performance more than the framework).
I'm about to start on a small, static website project: no database or CMS required. Basically, a brochure website.
I used the CodeIgniter framework recently to develop a full-blown web application, and I'm wondering if it appropriate to also use CI for smaller, simpler sites.
Typically for a static brochure site I would write regular PHP pages with a few includes thrown in to save on repetition (i.e. HTML with a sprinking of PHP), but this time around I'm wondering if my new friend CodeIgniter might be able to streamline the development process.
Is it sensible to consider a framework for such a simple project, or is it overkill? I'm worried that I might be the proverbial carpenter whose only tool is a hammer, and sees every problem as a nail!
I think almost never, the needs change and come more with time... so it is better to have a good base using a framework to wait the future needs. but if your project will not have a long live time and your needs are reaaally simples then i think is not necesary use a framework.
I personally would never develop a site outside of a framework for anything more than a single page brocure-ware site. I work so much faster inside the framework.
I'm a Python/Django developer but here's my take.
I've done some small non-framework sites with PHP and I don't know how PHP frameworks compare to DJango, but if they're anything alike the fact remains that I'm far more proficient developing within a framework than to code something from scratch by hand.
It helps me stay organized if nothing more than giving me the VC of the MVC. Django provides me with a lot of built-in tools, like form handling, that make my life much easier even for small sites.
I'm going to presume PHP frameworks provide similar things, maybe not though.
You also can't anticipate how the site will grow over time. It's easier to maintain something built in a framework, and if you ever need to extend the site in the future it's nice to have some structure behind it.
Since I tend to either inherit bespoke frameworks, or write my own, I would peg it at about 3 pages: if it's more, then setting up a framework is worth it. And if it needs a DB, then odds are good you'll end up with more than 3 pages, anyway. :-)
I recommend Rapyd, a "minimalistic and rapid PHP framework".
How long is a piece of string?
I use CodeIgniter (specifically PyroCMS) for crappy 5 page brochure-ware but that is purely to let clients admin their own pages easily with a WYSIWYG.
Any client will say "Wow, news, contact form and I can get me some of that Twitter too?!" so I just dump it in there to save everyone time.
If you are developing from scratch there is no point if the content is static. Something like CodeIgniter helps with DB interaction, Form validation and the breaking down of multiple pages into logical chunks i.e Controller classes and methods.
If you have no db-content, don't handle forms and don't have many pages then there is litterally no point adding the overhead.
That said, try my Twiny framework for literally the smallest MVC framework around.
If you don't need a database, CMS and is just a simple static HTML/css/PHP page, I don't think you can go wrong creating a site without a framework. Plus, if you have been using frameworks for a long time, you can have a break and do "code for code" and have a feel what it's like to code from scratch :)
Site is never small if the client is there who may want to ask you to add more functionality at any time :)
For a simple site like that. why even use a framework why not use something like concrete5. Overkill? definitely. but hey it is easy and requires almost no coding so upkeep is a breeze.
The site would be up and running in less than an hour and it makes you look good in the eyes of your customer and that can't hurt.!
I don't think any project is too small for a framework, I think some frameworks are too big for small projects. Everyone hopes their website will grow. So no matter how small the site is now, growth will be easier to manage if you start with a framework.
The only case when framework would be an overkill is with a throw-away scripts, such as when you need to quickly automate something that you won't need to do again ever. For anything that will enter execution cycle more then few times framework is a probably would be better.
If it requires under several hours of work - then it is small. Anyway if you plan to devote more than "several hours" - definately use a framework AND a control revision system.
It depends. If you're positive this is all the site you're working on will ever be, or migrating when future needs arise, then I can't see why there would a reason for using a framework, unless you feel more comfortable working with one.
As a personal example, I recently worked on a semi-static website, for which I put together a minimal framework which worked as a caching preprocessor for static html, inserting common html-elements into preset places. This allowed for some dynamic content, yet still using only static html for content.
I'd say you're answer lies within a formula consisting of future development needs, your own working preference, and performance.
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Why should I use templating system in PHP?
I was just curious as to how many developers actually do this?
Up to this time I haven't and I was just curious to whether it really helps make things look cleaner and easier to follow. I've heard using template engines like Smarty help out, but I've also heard the opposite. That they just create unnecessary overhead and it's essentially like learning a new language.
Does anyone here have experience with templates? What are your feelings on them? Are the helpful on big projects or just a waste of time?
On a side note: The company I work for doesn't have a designer, there are just two developers working on this project charged with the re-design/upgrade. I also use a bit of AJAX, would this have issues with a template engine?
Not only does this practice make the code look cleaner, it also has many long term and short term benefits.
You can never go wrong with organizing code. First off it makes it much easier to maintain and easier to read if someone else has to pick up after you. I have worked with Smarty before and it is nice, it keeps the designers work from interfering with the program code.
Using template systems and frameworks would make it much easier to accomplish tasks. There is a rule of thumb you can follow which is DRY (Don't Repeat Yourself). Frameworks help you achieve this goal.
You may want to look into MVC, this is the model that these frameworks are based off of. But you could implement this design structure without necessarily using framework. Avoiding the learning curve. For frameworks like Zend, the learning curve is much greater than some other ones.
I have found that Code Igniter is fairly easy to use and they have some VERY helpful video tutorials on their website.
Best of Luck!!
Actually it's the business logic that needs to be separated from the views. You can use php as a "template language" inside the views.
You can use ajax on any template engine i think.
Edit
My original response addressed the question whether to use a template engine or not to generate your html.
I argued that php is good enough for template tasks, as long as you separate business logic from presentation logic.
It's worth doing this even for simple pages, because it enables you to:
isolate the code that is the brain of your application from the code that is the face, and so you can change the face, without messing with the brain, or you can enhance the brain without braking the looks
isolate 80% of bugs in 20% of your code
create reusable components: you could assign different presentation code to the same business code, and vice versa;
separate concerns of the feature requests (business code) from the concerns of the design requests (presentation code), which also usually are related to different people on the client side, and different people on the contractor side
use different people to write the business code and the presentation code; you can have the designer to handle directly the presentation code, with minimal php knoledge;
A simple solution, which mimics MVC and doesn't use objects could be:
use a single controller php file, which receives all requests via a .httpdaccess file;
the controller decides what business and presentation code to use, depending on the request
the controller then uses an include statement to include the business php file
the business code does it's magic, and then includes the presentation php file
PHP is a template engine (or if you prefer, a hypertext preprocessor). When HTML is mixed heavily with PHP logic, it does become very difficult to maintain, which is why you would have functions defined separately to build various parts and simply build the page from short function calls embedded in the HTML. Done like this, I don't see much of a difference between Smarty and raw PHP, other than the choice of delimiters.
Separation of concerns is a very important tenant to any type of software development, even on the web. Too many times I have found that people just throw everything into as few files as possible and call it a day. This is most certainly the wrong way to do it. As has been mentioned, it will help with maintainability of the code for others, but more than that, it helps you be able to read the code. When everything is separated out, you can think about easily.
Code Ignitor, I have found, has been the easiest to learn framework for working with PHP. I pretty much started my current job and was up and running with it within a few days, from never having heard of it, to using it pretty efficiently. I don't see it as another language at all, either. Basically, using the framework forces me to organize things in a manageable way, and the added functionality is anlagous to using plugins and such for jQuery, or importing packages in Java. The thought that it's like learning another language seems almost silly.
So, in short, organize organize organize. Keep in mind, though, that there is a level of abstraction that just becomes absurd. A rule of thumb is that a class (or file in our case) should do one thing very well. This doesn't mean it is a class that wraps around print, but takes a string, formats it using a complex algorithm and then prints it (this is just an example). Each class should do something specific, and you can do that without any framework. What makes MVC great, though, is that it lets you organize things further, not just on the single class level, but on the level of "packages", being Model, View, and Controller (at least in the case of these frameworks; there are other ways to package projects). So, now you have single classes that do things well, and then you have them grouped with similar classes that do other things well. This way, everything is kept very clean an manageable.
The last level to think about once you have things organized into classes, and then packages, is how these classes get accessed between packages. When using MVC, the access usually will go Model<->Controller<->View, thus separating the model (which is usually database stuff and "business" code in the PHP world), from the view (which usually takes information from the user, and passes it along to the controller, who will then get more information from the model, if necessary, or do something else with the input information). The controller kind of works like the switchboard between the two other packages usually. Again, there are other ways to go with packaging and such, but this is a common way.
I hope that helps.
Smarty and other php template frameworks really do nothing more than compile to PHP anyway, and they also cache their results in most cases to allow for faster processing. You can do this all on your own, but if you ever look at the compiled templates that Smarty generates, and compare to the original Smarty template you create, you can see that one is far more readable than the other.
I write mostly mod_perl these days and started using templates (HTML::Template) halfway through our ongoing project. If I had to make the decision again, I would use templates right from the start - rewriting later to use templates is kind of tedious, though rewarding because you get nicer and cleaner code. For anything bigger than 2-3 pages in php, I would also use some template engine.
One big advantage of a templating engine such as Smarty is that non-developers can use it to embed the necessary logic that is used on the front-end (one really can't separate logic and display on all but the simplest sites). However, if the developer is the one maintaining the pages then using PHP would be preferable in my opinion.
If you separate out large logic blocks and maintain a consistent patten for looping and for-each flow control statements (i.e. don't use print statements, or only use print statements for one-liners, etc.) Then that should be okay.