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I'm in the process of building a rather big web application with PHP + Codeigniter. When I first began this project I was excited by the hosting provider PHPFog product of PHP-as-a-service. The idea of simply developing my application and not having to worry about server maintenance, setup, securing, etc appealed to me.
However, I've had far too many issues with PHPFog to be comfortable trusting it with hosting my application. I've run into situations where I've deleted a file from my git repository, pushed it to my remote repo at phpfog, and wound up with the file not actually being removed on one or all of my application servers. The service is also supposed to provide newrelic for application monitoring however this only worked briefly and hasn't worked at all since August 10th despite numerous complaints. And their customer service is far from satisfactory in helping solve all of these problems.
So now I'm considering alternatives, and Heroku has caught my attention. Heroku seems like a much more mature cloud application platform. However it does not provide PHP hosting. Instead it provides ROR, Java, Node.js, and Clojure.
How difficult would it be for someone with a lot of experience in PHP (and the Codeigniter framework) to learn Ruby + Rails and rebuild an application? Both organize code in the MVC pattern, so I hope that means my views would only require modification of their hooks to match ruby's syntax. I've already designed my database and all of the SQL queries to access the data I need from my models in CI. What do you guys think?
EDIT 1:
So I've watched this video as an introduction to ROR development:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzj723LkRJY
And my initial reaction is 'So ROR is like a coloring book?' I'm skeptical when I see huge chunks of an application come together via something as simple 'scaffolding.' I don't know what to think other than I'm afraid that ROR sacrifices some of the granularity/control I'm used to with php
EDIT 2:
I've recently discovered https://cloudcontrol.com/ They appear to offer the same type of hosting with PHP-as-a-service that PHPFog offers but with more control, such as the ability to directly access your database and auto-scaling. Still the great idea of a git-push to deploy to multiple servers without having to deal with setting them up manually. The only thing I dislike is that their datacenters are based in Ireland (Amazon AWS). However they told me that they're planning on moving to the US in the next 3 months and offering pricing in USD.
While yes they both are MVC, yes both Ruby and PHP are scripting languages, and yes you shouldn't require much modification to your views other than changing the php hooks to ruby hooks, I think you are fooling yourself if you think it is just an easy conversion.
Ruby as a language is IMO far superior to PHP. It allows you to do so much more with so much less code. If you were to convert your PHP code to Ruby code by replacing each call with its equivalent, you wouldn't be doing it the Ruby way.
On top of that, Rails as a framework is far more mature and powerful than CodeIgniter. It will provide you far greater flexibility and convention-based help that you will code things a lot differently than if you were using CI.
Added to that, you will want to use ActiveRecord as your ORM and should write database migrations to create your database, so all those SQL scripts you have written will be pretty much useless.
If you decide that porting your app to RoR is the way to go, then I wholeheartedly encourage you to take some time and learn Ruby and Rails, and then rewrite your application as if you were doing a Rails app from scratch. You'll be amazed at how quickly you can get a project up and running.
Before this question turns into the typical Ruby vs PHP discussion, and before you embark on an (almost) impossible task, you should consider other hosting providers. There are many to choose from, some of whom offer this "PHP as a service" you're looking for.
http://vps.net/
http://mediatemple.net/
http://rackspace.com/
Please realize that porting a PHP application to ROR or Ruby is not an easy task. You may as well start again (in a language you know little about, no doubt). You shouldn't base your programming language on bad hosting experience or whatever that guy said. Use what you're comfortable with.
This one is a must read for you
http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2007/09/7_reasons_i_switched_back_to_p_1.html
I'm deciding on a web framework for an upcoming project, and I'd appreciate any advice. We've decided to use jQuery for the JavaScript, and are heavily leaning toward Python or PHP (more Python) for our server-side logic. I'm especially interested in web2py because of its jQuery integration.
About our project
Our project is to develop a security console for a complex
cybersecurity system operating within an organization's internal
network.
This console will be largely server-driven, as messages come in from the network and must be pushed by the server to the user.
The user will also be able to initiate security actions, the implementation for which will likely be in C++.
The interface we've planned will be relatively rich, and I want to leverage jQuery's power as much as possible.
We have some control over the browser environment we'll be running in (e.g., we don't have to worry about clients with JavaScript disabled).
Our site is likely to have only a few, long-lived client connections.
We are looking for software components with permissive licenses, though we're using some copyleft components (I see that web2py is LGPL while Django is BSD, so +1 to Django)
We have about a month to create a functional demo of our system, of which this interface is a small (but visible) part.
About us
We are two developers with about 5 years of programming experience, but little web development experience. I have several years of Python experience and a summers' worth of experience messing around with PHP. My coworker has some Python experience and has never touched PHP.
I used Django once back in 2008, and was frustrated by the file and code structure, which I found highly unintuitive. Perhaps this structure is inherent to the MVC model (I've had similar experiences with Django and CakePHP since), and I just need to bite the bullet and memorize it.
My Question
Given the information above, what are the relative advantages of the various Python/PHP web frameworks for our project? As mentioned above, I'm especially interested in web2py because of its jQuery integration, though Django's dominance is (once again) hard to ignore.
Thank you very much for your time!
Before deciding on a framework, you should first decide if you want to commit to a language you are unfamiliar with.
You said you've both got minimal PHP experience, so you have to weigh up the advantages here; Will the pros for going PHP (if any) out weigh the amount of time the developers will need to spend to retrain?
(Although depending on your background experience, PHP should be very easy to pick up.)
If you frame it like that, PHP would have to have a pretty convincing offering to give you. From what I'm seeing, specifically Django vs web2py, they both seem very close in functionality - which is good, but doesn't provide the "you must use x!" scenario you may be after.
However, If you will be bringing more people in later and feel finding people to work with web2py will be difficult, it may tip it to PHP. You said your self, Django's popularity (and BSD license) is hard to ignore, and it should make it easier to find people for later expansion.
If it were me, in your shoes, I would go with web2py. Assuming the development team will continue to be Python focused for the foreseeable future.
Python vs PHP: Python
With python, you can always write wrappers for C code so you won't have to mess with starting other processes and passing args to them. That might be useful for your security functions.
Web2py will allow you to easily write a webservice for this too, to more easily integrate the C portions with the web-site infrastructure.
If you already prefer python, I would go with that. If you need to bring on web-developers later that are trained in PHP, teach them Python. It won't take long, and I'm sure they'll appreciate it in the long run. Plus, moving from a PHP MVC framework to web2py or even django would make things easier. I've used CodeIgniter for PHP and find that web2py was so much simpler and easy to understand.
Also as for the directory structure, django is not actually true MVC -- it's MTV (model, template, view).
I find web2py's organization a little more straight-forward. But yes, either way it can seem strange at first. I would say YES, you should bite the bullet and use MVC.
In web2py, the "view" is html markup with the ability to write raw python code. The controller extracts data from the model (database), attaches any needed files (css/js etc) and the model of course simply defines the structure of the data and allows you to access it in an OO way.
Lastly, I wouldn't tip my hat in favor of web2py just because of jQuery integration. It does use it, and a some of the built-in framework stuff (like response.flash/session.flash, the LOAD function that loads a page or data from another controller) rely on jQuery, but using it in another framework only means you have to write an include statement (e.g. ).
But, the way it allows/forces you to focus on development is what takes the cake for me.
I've been using Django as part of my work for a couple years now and truly enjoy it when I can make it work. Unfortunately, and maybe it's just me, but I end up spending hours working on configuration every time I start a new server, or try to make it work in a development IDE.
It's relatively simple to start a new project and start coding. But there are all sorts of little catches that keep things from working if you deviate from the norm. Things like if you want your django project to serve from a subdirectory like example.com/django. The information is out there to make it work. But it's hard to find.
I can't tell you if web2py has those same problems or not. I only just learned about it from your question. It does look slick and simple though. I can tell you that after the hassles of getting the applications to serve properly from whatever server configuration I'm using, django is way more fun to program with than plain php. PHP frameworks may differ.
From my understanding the project not usual web application, you must need event driven program, web server in python.
Django won't help you here.You should look into Flask, Flask has inbuilt console too.http://werkzeug.pocoo.org/, you might need to use twisted, gevent,Flask jquery.
I would recommend asking about web2py on its mailing list -- you'll get lots of help and advice there. Regarding the LGPL license, note that it only applies to the framework, not your application -- you can license your application however you like, including closed source/commercial.
It sounds like you'll need some server push functionality, but if you'll really only need a few long-lived connections at a time, you might not need to bother with solutions like Twisted or gevent. If necessary, though, web2py does include this (requires Tornado, and works using WebSockets, though can be adapted to use other methods).
I'm looking to develop a Win32 desktop app - a one off, for a personal need. A GUI is not scrictly needed, though would be a bonus.
What is needed:
The ability to monitor the window title of a specific window.
The ability to run DOS commands when this window title changes.
I hope my programming ability is up to this - I feel I'm pretty good with PHP, but I'm not ready to spend time learning OO for this one-off project.
What non OO (or at least not mandatorily OO) languages are there for desktop apps that might be suitable for a beginner on a task like?
Any other, more hacky approaches are welcome too - batch scripts etc.
Many thanks for any advice,
Jack
Whether or not the language supports OO doesn't really matter for your purposes. After all, PHP supports objects and you seem to do just fine with it.
Personally, i'd recommend Java or C# to get started with. The communities for these two languages are huge and there are plenty of tutorials online to help you get started.
It's extremely easy to get starting writing C# with Visual Studio Express. And a good hello world tutorial.
Also, if you stick with C# you can take advantage of WMI which will allow you to do everything you need for this project (and much much more).
Lastly, most windows machines will be able to run your application without having to install anything extra and Visual Studio builds the .exe for you as part of the build process.
You can use PHP for desktop apps if you really want to. Just install the php CLI.
You can even do a gui for your desktop app in php: http://gtk.php.net/
EDIT: I'm not sure how easily you can call win32 api functions from PHP, however. There look to be a few articles about this online and a SO question: How to call winapi functions from PHP?
I would vote for Python using the included TkInter module for GUI. Dead simple to use.
Widgets aren't the prettiest looking, but development is rapid.
EDIT: I mistook "non-OO" in the question for "OO". Python is most definitely not "non-OO", but but is very well suited to doing what you asked.
You could write this in pretty much any mainstream language supported by Windows. C or C++ are obvious choices. C# and Visual Basic .NET are going to require the .NET Framework ... not a bad thing, but perhaps more than you want to tackle for a simple project. Come to think of it, you might be able to do this with JScript or VBScript, although I'm not clear on what API functions you have easy access to. And I have to believe that it's possible to do with PowerShell with just a little work.
Your options are wide open.
F#
It's an awesome piece of work, has access to the Framework class libraries, supports GUI development, really easy parallel programming, compiles to IL (same as C#) but has a really concise functional syntax.
I wanted to try out python to create webpages instead of using php. However I came across that you need either mod_python or mod_wsgi installed to apache to make it play with python. If you now use pure, i'm not sure if it should be said pure, python code, not using any web frameworks like django. I found out that making a simple page looks differently in mod_python and in mod_wsgi.
How come?, the more I looked into python it just seemed to be a harder language to use to make webpages comparing it to php. Is there some good starting point to learn python webdevelopment?
Sorry if my question is blurry. I simply want some guidance to start out with python webdevelopment
Yes, making a webpage with python without using a web framework is harder than it is in php. This is by design, since it gives you a great deal more control over how your page interacts with the server, allowing you to build sites that scale well, among other benefits. WSGI is the modern way to interact with a server, but as you observed, it includes many of the nuts and bolts that PHP hides from the user.
If you're looking for a php-like experience for python, you might look at web.py or Flask. They are pretty minimalistic as far as frameworks go, and take care of interacting with the server but otherwise stay out of your way.
That said, you really should consider Django or another similar framework - they provide some really great benefits that help you get what would otherwise be painfully complex sites going quickly. They solve a slightly different problem and provide different solutions from the common PHP frameworks, so you should consider them even if you don't like frameworks in PHP.
If you want to do things in an even more php-like fashion, you could use CGI. It's definitely not a recommended solution, and won't teach you best practices moving forward, but it can get you started...
Really though, consider a framework. It's how most development in Python for the web is done, and you'll learn more useful skills if you develop using one.
mod_wsgi is better, because it's based on the WSGI specification, which defines the interface between web applications (or frameworks) and web servers. A WSGI app at its simplest is nothing more than a function that sends some HTTP headers via a callback and returns a string in response to information about an HTTP request. And since WSGI is implemented by many web servers, you aren't tied to Apache.
The closest you can get to pure frameworkless web development in Python is to write the WSGI app directly. This will really help you see the things that a framework like Django will obscure.
To make things easier, you might consider using Werkzeug, which is a utility library for WSGI. It has many components that are framework-like, but you can choose which ones you want and which ones you don't. For example, it has a really neat system for parsing and dispatching URLs. Werkzeug also has a simple command-line WSGI server which is probably better for development than Apache.
I'm replying to you with some advice, as someone who was in a very similar situation as you just a few months ago.
So you're using apache to host your website. That's cool. To make python play nice with apache, you're going to want to use mod_wsgi, for the reasons others have stated: seperation of concerns makes it better than cgi and mod_python is no longer being supported.
However, your impression that foregoing a framework will bring you closer to programming in "pure" python is a little bit off the mark. I shared the same opinion, and experimented with both Django and using only mod_wsgi. Let me share what I found.
Mod_wsgi is an implementation of the WSGI standard found in PEP 333. The distinction between the implementation and the standard is important. First, because it means that WSGI compliant applications will work across implementations. More importantly, it reveals something important about what WSGI is meant to do. That is, WSGI is intended a standard for writing frameworks. From the PEP:
simplicity of implementation for a framework author is not the same thing as ease of use for a web application author
and
The goal of WSGI is to facilitate easy interconnection of existing servers and applications or frameworks, not to create a new web framework.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't do something with wsgi, but you should expect to be writing a framework more than an application. If you're interested in writing a simple framework this tutorial is where I started.
However, if you're just looking to make a website, look into one of the frameworks that others have suggested. You'll still be writing python code, but the authors have worked hard to make the code you write closer connected producing websites than producing frameworks. I've personally used Django, and once it was up and running, it was rather painless to churn out interesting applications. Also, their documentation is very good, and they have a good tutorial here. That being said, Django is very fully featured, and if you're looking for something a little more minimalistic, I've heard good things about Flask, but there are lots of other options as well.
You can use ordinary CGI, which is really simple. Create a Python program that looks something like this:
#!/usr/bin/env python
import sys
sys.stdout.write("Content-type: text/html\r\n\r\n")
print("Hello <em>world</em>!")
Make this file executable (chmod +x) and put it in a directory you've configured for CGI files in your web server.
You will also find the standard Python cgi module very helpful.
If your goal is for making your python program web friendly then the answer is Cherrypy. It is a very flexible and simple framework that enables your python objects exposed in web. Check it out and it has a nice web server built-in that you don't need apache/mod_wsgi etc.,
I've been doing html, css and javascript for quite a long time, mostly for my very own enjoyment. I would say I know fairly much, I've created many simple games and apps and experiments with javascript. However there is only so much that is possible to do in the browser, for any more "complete" websites I am constantly confronted with my ignorance on server side programming.
So, what do I need. I need to get my head around how to use databases and how to use some server side programming language, I guess. What is the right choice? What should I avoid?
Thanks.
PHP and MySQL have a pretty low barrier to entry (they're both free and ubiquitous). I'd start with those, since most hosts provide them for you. As an added bonus, they work really well together (and PHP isn't very hard to learn coming from a web development background).
Head First SQL is a great book for learning MySQL. All of the examples in the book are done on MySQL. The book even explains where to get it and how to install it. As for PHP, the introductory tutorial at official website is the best place to learn it.
Update: Head First PHP & MySQL is now available. I haven't read this one yet, but other books in the series and by the same author are great for learning new languages from scratch.
Download Python. Learn the Python language. Learn Object-Oriented programming.
Python includes SQLite, this makes it easier to Learn the SQL language.
Download the Django framework. This makes it easy to write server-side applications that work simply and reliably.
I would suggest PHP. Not because it's the best, most modern or cleanest language out there, but because it is easy to learn for someone coming from pure HTML.
You begin by just adding tiny bits of PHP to your regular HTML and magic happens :)
Ruby is a fantastic language and the frameworks for web stuff generally teach you some good practices. Try it. The Learn to program book uses Ruby, maybe you'd like to check it out.
I noticed in your question you mention that you've been using javascript. If you're comfortable progamming javascript, I've recently begun working with server side javascript in the form of EJScript on linux and using jscript on windows. It's been fairly painless, and the documentation has been pretty good so far on both.
If you're more interested in learning this with another technology then Django & Python or ASP.NET & C# (or IronPython) are both fairly low barrier to entry platforms available on windows, *nix, etc...
I would say that if you're comfortable working in Linux, then go for PHP and MySQL. If you aren't comfortable working in Linux, then download the free Visual Web Developer version of Visual Studio Express, and get started using that. This lets you program in VB.Net or C#, and use the .Net web development framework. It's really miles ahead of anything PHP in terms of how nice a platform it is to work on. There's also a free developer edition of SQL Server that lets you store up to 4 GB of data.
There's plenty of .Net hosts out there now too. Although, due to increased license costs, Windows hosting plans will usually cost more and give you less space/bandwidth than Linux hosting plans, you can still get enough room to play around with and deploy some apps on the web. If you develop something really cool, and outgrow what your hosting account provides, it's probably time to upgrade to a VPS, and post ads on your site to start paying the bills
I'd recommend PHP for folks who are familiar with HTML but are newish to programming. Here's why:
I'm currently an ASP.Net developer, and I think that ASP.Net abstracts waaaaay to much to make it a good first programming environment. I say learn how to generate and manipulate straight HTML with a language like PHP instead of trying to understand GridViews, etc., which have no bearing or relevance to programming in the broader sense.
I wouldn't say ASP.Net is "the Dark Path" or anything, but if you start out by learning it, you'll tend to favor the warm and insulating arms of the framework. ASP.Net is pretty much a code-generator when compared to more explicit (some would say reckless, messy, and tedious, but I'm not one of them) methods like PHP.
With PHP you'll see the effect your code has on the actual HTML when you view source. With an ASP.Net page, you'll be baffled by the amount and complexity of the HTML it spits out.
After you get your hands dirty in PHP, you can explore the pros and cons of frameworks like ASP.Net that "do a lot of the work for you".
I was exactly in your situation 3 to 4 years ago and, like some of the commentators suggest, I tried PHP because of its low barrier of entry.
That was a mistake! Oh sure I was able to achieve some things here and there, including using a contact form from a book which was so flawed that it was later hijacked by big time spammers and got my domain banned from most email servers out there.
Later on I tried to learn how to create dotabase driven sites with object oriented programming following the guidance of the excellent books, blog posts, and forums from Sitepoint and other sources. It was just too hard for my little brain. I just could not do it.
So what happened? 2 1/2 years ago I decided to learn Rails, which had just turned v. 1.1. It has been fun since the beginning and extremely rewarding. Working with Ruby is a pleasure, much easier to learn than PHP, and the Rails framework is so well put together that you can, with little effort, produce some very elaborate web sites with advanced features all while learning how to do proper object oriented web programming.
I used my new knowledge to recreate from scratch the site of my non-profit organization (with a new domain ;-) and, with a friend who is a talented designer, created a web development firm.
Don't get me wrong, it's not that easy, if you want to learn programming you need to put a lot of effort into it but in my own experience Rails can bring you some instant results while letting you get deeper and deeper over time.
I recommend two main sources of knowledge:
The excellent, official Rails
guides.
The free screencasts
from Railscasts.
Whatever your choice will be I wish you the best and a fun and fulfilling experience
I recently came upon this question myself. I really liked the way PHP integrates with HTML making designing a site more natural in my opinion. Design your site as you would with static content and then switch the static with the dynamic. However, I wanted to choose a "good" language. I looked at PHP, Ruby, Perl, and Python, as they are the most popular, open source options. I didn't need any powerhorses, if you will, like Ruby on Rails or Django, since I just wanted to mess around with server side stuff and some SQL—nothing serious. I don't remember why nor do I care to remember why, but I chose Python. But I still wanted that integration with HTML. I came across Karrigell. It's a neat piece of Python that essentially handles the integration. It comes with a little web server which you can use on its own or use something like mod_proxy with lighttpd. The devs don't limit you to only Python inside HTML, though. Their server parses: Python inside HTML, HTML inside Python, plain ol' Python scripts, and Karrigell services. It may not integrate as well as PHP does, but it's pretty damn good.