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Closed 10 years ago.
I know this has been done many times before (some posts are really old so would be nice to get feedback based on current state of play), but I would like people's advice on which framework to use for a new application that we are about to start developing.Though we have set-up everything according to ZEND but now client's investor need to know why we choose Zend.
It was selected on the bases, out of 5 developers 2 are familiar with Zend. Now client want a detailed explanation why we didn't choose Symfony over Zend. Our reason is not enough to support our selection ;) so help me to choose which framework has what advantages over other so that we can present him solid reasons(for zend), and if symfony has more +ves then why we choose it(symfony) NOW. We can change our framework now.
I guess the correct answer is 'depends on what you're application and you're own requirements/preferences' so here is a brief description of the application and some of our own requirements:
The Application:
A financial transaction system extracting live transactions data done over thousands/millions of POS world-wide.
Few important things for project:
Database is already provided to us & it is an ORACLE database.
Oracle database has more than 86 tables. Some of the tables have more than 60000 rows of data at present & some of them have 79 columns too.
Our Requirements:
good support for jQuery
allow easy output of different types of output (HTML, XML, JSON)
easy UI development using in-bulit functions/methods.
ACL
fairly fast development (as always, schedule is tight)
nice clean business logic layer with freedom to architect the solution as we like.
a framework that helps you to get stuff done quickly but doesn't restrict you too much.
a good platform for doing other projects.
Any feedback from people who have used these frameworks (specially those who have used both) would be much appreciated.
Zend is not compulsion, but if changed to symfony, we need support for that. So support your answers with reasons, links.
Thank you.
Why Zend
First of all, I had my good experience over working with Zend Framework. It is most stable framework over all the php RAD Frameworks. Zend provides you jQuery builtin Class as Helper that will make it easy for you to make jQuery usage most easy. Even though, it provides the best usage with Dojo too. ZendX_jQuery class makes it easy for you to make use jQuery whenever you want. And, as you know jQuery allows ajax calls by $.ajax*() so it would be perfect choice for going through client side scripting.
However, I'll focus over the zend too because you can go through writing your API for most of the common transactions all over the site. As, ZEND provides Using AjaxContext with Zend_Rest_Controller and Zend_Rest_Route classes for this purpose that holds the Ajax context.
Zend has the best cache system. Even though, it provides the perfect search indexing using lucene. It is easy and stable to make your own re-usable component in your class library. CLI makes your structure delightful so no need to make everything manually.
No problem of managing templates. Action loads its view by prefix. View doesn't bounds you to have any templating engine. However, you can go through that too.
Layouts capability makes it extremely perfect to make generic and dynamic layouts that would be based over different of the controllers based upon ACL. And by ACL, i also got that Zend_Acl provides the complete solution over implementing out the ACL services. ACL is ofcourse the mandatory thing in your application.
Zend also provides you ability of having the modular structure of your site. Just plug and play your code snippets.
Why Symfony
I never gone too much deep over the symfony. However, I experienced it before for one of my project. Overall, as comparing, zend has decent folder structure then symfony. Symfony provides you ability to your code snippets but those snippets are known as bundle here. It has some templating styles that you need to implement in your views. It didn't found any built-in core library for implementing jQuery dynamically. May be, I would be wrong here but I don't know about it yet!.
I also got the same situation when I need to compare Zend & Symfony. But, after looking over all the aspects, I decided to go through the Zend.
Related
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Closed 9 years ago.
I have heard a lot about PHP frameworks like ZEND, CodeIgniter,CakePhp etc and i am also well aware of some advantages of using it i.e. increased productivity,reduced errors etc but doesn't php framework make coding a complex process ? Doesn't coding without framework provides more flexibility ? Some people say you don't need any additional framework, as PHP is itself a framework.
So why there is so much usage of PHP framework ? Are frameworks really necessary in PHP?
This is a broad question and I think an important one. I am in the camp of NOT using frameworks unless absolutely necessary. The question is, when is it necessary?
First off, the thing that I think gave me this strange, allergic reaction to frameworks is that inexperienced coders want to use them for EVERYTHING, even tiny sites.... and it's bizarre. Maybe its through some need to make their resumes bigger by saying they've used codeigniter- but in my experience that doesn't make a damn bit of a difference. Hiring managers want SKILLSETS, not somebody that can read API documentation- which anyone can do. If you have working knowledge about program architecture and OOP principles, you're hired. If you don't, but you're a codeigniter ninja, .... eeehhhh.... ok?
Frameworks have their uses but I think when your mom wants to make a website for her bake sale then you can just slap a page together using a much lighter weight system. I don't sit in the camp of belief that you should include code "in case you need it". Over time, I have developed my own framework that is absolutely tiny, which is why every single web site or application I have ever built has ranked in the top 2% (though usually top 1%) of page load times in the world by google.
This is not to say they are bad- just don't go running off to use a framework because you want to put it on your resume- you're actually shooting yourself in the foot in the long run. Why? Because you won't spend time using the language itself, you'll spend time using the language of the framework. Take jQuery for instance- I avoided it for YEARS because it wasn't JAVASCRIPT. People scoffed at it- but now, when I go to a technical interview and I get asked (inevitably): "What is your experience level with jQuery", and I say "not much", and they for a second look surprised, but then I follow it up with "but I just wrote dependency injection via inversion of control in native JS yesterday"- I get hired ON THE SPOT.
Frameworks are great. Just ask yourself if you really need them. Particularly the question is: are the benefits of coding it yourself outweighed by the time benefits (don't forget about the learning curve of the platform) of the framework or not? On the one hand (non-framework approach), you learn a lot, and perhaps you take more time because you're working out your own kinks- but you learned a ton about the language itself (PHP in this case). On the other hand, you learned a new framework and maybe got a site up quicker that most likely is slower.
Wordpress is a great example of an overused framework in my opinion. Back in my freelancing days I used to take on gigs that needed me to "revamp a wordpress site"- only to find a site that could barely load because somebody plugged in every plugin they could find and made what was a stupid simple site into a tank with ungreased treads. It's OVERKILL in that case.
With my experience in CTO and Tech Lead positions, when somebody puts Wordpress and jQuery as primary points on their resume, to me that says "I don't know a thing about OOP and how to use these languages if required" which, in the real world (and I work on huge projects like windows 8 and other projects of that magnitude) - is OFTEN the case. Microsoft expressly forbids the usage of jQuery in their metro app system for MS released products because they want to show off their system dependency free.
Other companies, however, DO use frameworks. I just got off a project using Foundation and it was AWESOME- but that's because the architect of the project fully researched the framework and we used it RIGHT. The result was a fully responsive pristine code base that went from full monitor glory down to triscuit-sized smartphone screen awesomeness.
IN SHORT:
Frameworks, when used right, can be awesome- particularly for large projects (and I'm talking enterprise large). For smaller projects they aren't necessarily bad- but when they are used without thinking about their implementations, its like using a hatchet for a scalpel.
Just my 2 cents.
Doesn't php framework make coding a complex process?
It depends what you want to do. If all you're doing is creating a basic contact form for a site that is all static HTML, then yes using a framework would make it a more complex process. On the other hand if you're building a large scale app then using a framework would not necessarily make it more complex.
Doesn't coding without framework provides more flexibility ?
This depends on the framework itself, they aren't all the same. Some frameworks such as Slim or Codeigniter are very trimmed down and don't get in the way too much and so don't really impact on flexibility, some are more complex such as Symfony2/Zend.
Some people say you don't need any additional framework, as PHP is itself a framework.
They are right, you technically don't need a framework, you can do anything with plain PHP that you can do with a framework. Frameworks have really evolved from developers personal archives of functions and helper code. PHP can be relatively low level in that it doesn't have a ready made function to do everything you need. Before frameworks, developers tended to have their own set of helper code that would be reused on many projects. Frameworks are still essentially that, except they are collaborative projects that hundreds or thousands of developers contribute to.
One other benefit of frameworks is if you have several developers, and one has developed an application and you want another developer to contribute to it or take over it, then if the developer is familiar with the framework that was used he can get up to speed on the app much quicker than if it was written in plain PHP. Without the framework, the new developer would have to decipher the previous developers system before they even start to look at adding any new functionality.
Are they necessary in PHP?
No they are not, sure it is possible to code anything without frameworks. But it's more work, this is like: Why am I using C when I can do all the same by writing assembler?
So why there is so much usage of PHP framework?
The benefits of using frameworks is, that you can use many predefined things. For example, in most PHP frameworks you can use MVC Pattern. Sure you could also build your own MVC structure with flat PHP, but that is like re-inventing the wheel everytime again. Only thing is, if you have very specific requirements, you may can/should not use a framework, but in most cases the requirements are not that specific.
The point with MVC is only one of a lot benefits. Depending on the framework you want to use, there are specific benefits.
So, it is just like you said. By using a framework you can save time, because you don't have to re-invent everything that already exists.
You can see a framwork as a tool, that helps you to develop better and faster.
Edit: Like Ayesh K mentioned in his comment, it is also a benefits, that a framework is developed by many experts, so it normally is better code, following the principle: 'Four eyes see more than two'.
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Closed 10 years ago.
By doing some research, one of the disadvantages often reported about Zend Framework is the amount of work required to get off the ground. For me this could be addressed if ZF had strong model and backend interface generators like Symfony does. I have been looking for those and here is what I found:
Model generators
http://code.google.com/p/zend-db-model-generator/: looks like official one, based on user feedback, the documentation seems to be awful though.
http://code.google.com/p/zend-model-generator/: seems quite advanced. updated 3 months ago.
https://github.com/inxilpro/Galahad-FE/: not updated in 2 years, looks dead.
https://github.com/codeinchaos/zend-model-generator/blob/master/generate.php: single php file, could be interesting to use as basis and extend as needed.
Backend interfaces
As usual one can use database administration tools
http://www.phpmyadmin.net: quite complete with plenty of new features since 3.5. Hard to extend.
http://www.adminer.org/: single-file backend interface. Quite complete. The use of plugins seems to make extending functionality easy.
Backend interface generators
http://zfdatagrid.com/grid/default/site/crud which comes from what looks like a very active ZF related project: http://code.google.com/p/zfdatagrid/.
http://www.koala-framework.org/: I've recently come across this framework which allows you to create "desktop-like" applications around Zend, which one could use to create a backend interface.
Setting up the interface seems to be quite easy, for instance here is how you would display a form to edit contacts on the same page as you would edit members:
<?php
class MemberContacts extends Kwf_Model_Db
{
protected $_table = 'member_contacts';
protected $_referenceMap = array(
'Member' => array(
'column' => 'member_id',
'refModelClass' => 'Members',
)
);
}
?>
A demo of Koala frameworks is available. To be honest it looks quite impressive.
Q: Which model generators and backend interface (generators) do you use for Zend and why?
I do not use any kind of generator, prepared backoffice or so called scaffolding.
Why I don't use them in a general way ?
These tools introduce a strong dependencies on the way the generated UI is structured, you do not have anymore the power to design it the exact way you want.
They are quite hard to reuse unless you know them very well, they introduce a lot of magic, for example when I create a backoffice using Django I've to set five parameters and I've a backoffice running. Understanding how it works do really need a lot of knowledge on the inner mechanisms of the tool, so updating it can be a real pain.
To my mind there's a strong difference between providing almost complete backoffice application like Symfony, Rails and Django do, and what Zend Framework do: constraining to general framework and libraries.
There is a deliberate choice between something working out of the box and something flexible. I think they tend to aim different needs.
I tend to prefer the Zend Framework approach since I'm not satisfied (nor experienced I've to admit it) with what others offer as an "almost done" UI.
Why I won't ever use them in Zend Framework ?
If Zend Framework doesn't embend such tools, I won't plug what others have tried to build upon it since nothing can guaranty that there won't be any regression on it (and upgrading can be a really good thing since Zend always integrate more and more external services). The power of Zend Framework is its flexibility, by overlapping tools over it, you're going against the philosophy of the product.
It might meet your expectation on really small project, but for bigger one I do really suggest you to build your UI according to your own needs, the backoffice will only take only you one or two weeks more.
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Closed 10 years ago.
I'm an intermediate PHP developer with no experience building a large scale web application in this language (though I have in others, mainly Rails)...say I wanted to build a social networking site using PHP and MYSQL (preferably) with all the web 2.0 trimmings.
Where should I start? What sort of frameworks should I be looking at? Any up to date modern books that would outline something like this? Really anything for building a modern web app in PHP.
Ryan, there is a php framework called Elgg which is a php framework directed at social networking based applications.
A whole list of them:
Top 40 Free Open Source Social Networking Software
I suggest you have a look at the Yii Framework. It is very well-designed and was written with performance in mind. They've heavily focused on optimising their code for use in combination with an opcode cache like APC - no other framework has shown the same level of performance improvement when used with APC. Outside of performance, the framework also offers lots of built-in support for security (secure sessions with HMAC, SQL injection prevention, XSS prevention, etc.), forms, user input validation, caching, authentication/access control, and JQuery integration.
If you're an intermediate PHP programmer who is not experienced/confident enough to build your own framework, then Yii is a really good place to start as the code is very elegant and imho the programmer made some great design choices while writing the framework - simply reading through the Yii code makes for a great way to learn about how to design/write good PHP code.
Just my two cents...
Wikipedia has a comparison of various social network frameworks / software:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_social_networking_software
Several of them use PHP / MySQL.
I also saw this book on creating a social network in PHP:
Create a powerful and dynamic Social Networking website in PHP
What sort of frameworks should I be looking at?
Try a modern framework like Kohana or maybe something more engineered-OO like Zend Framework.
You also might want to consider a simple procedural framework instead of an OO framework. PHP does very, very well working at low levels.
Avoid Cake. It tries to be Rails-like, but not only do Rails idioms translate very poorly into PHP, Cake is stuck in the design era of PHP4.
People Pods may be what you're looking for. It's a PHP framework built with social networking in mind.
I'm actually doing this right now currently with Zend Framework, and it is working out fantastically well.. Zend is seriously powerful and scalable.
I've always hated doing all the initial work of creating login accounts and hashing passwords and putting stuff in place to manage SESSIONS, so moving forward with new work I plan on checking out an early revision of this project and simply forking it into whatever other site that requires logins.
I think the place to start is to really understand the fundamentals of HTTP and the tools PHP gives you for dealing with its stateless nature.
Beyond that, I would look into templating. Perhaps Smarty?
Finally, all of the normal MVC design patterns stuff apply equally to PHP, and there are lots of implementations if you'd like to use something off the shelf. You might want to check out Cake, if you need a framework.
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Closed 10 years ago.
In the jungle of frameworks out there, I've come to the conclusion that I cannot simply decide on a framework without considering the type of application / site I want to create. I think I need a little help with determining this one.
This site is graphics heavy, with all of the content presented in a small <div> in the centre of the page, surrounded by graphics. The graphics around it should preferably be loaded only once.
The site will allow users to log on with their account and choose from a number of pre-made food recipes, or create their own. Then they can press a button to have the site generate a week or two of dishes.
The users will need their own control panel where they can customize stuff as wallpaper, dishes, labels etc. As well as browsing recipes, adding ingredients, and looking up which dishes they can create with the ingredients.
As mentioned, all of this data is supposed to be presented inside a square in the centre, so we need a system of jQuery panels. I was thinking of dynamically adding content to this square as needed. For example, emptying the content and adding new content to it when clicking links, etc.
We don't need any community per se; the possibility for discussion can be explored in a separate, external site.
I should mention I am more of a designer than a programmer. I get stuff pretty easily, but fear I don't have the capacity to create a framework like this from the ground up. I do know a bit of Visual Basic, but I'm not so good with C# syntax. I've never even touched PHP, but my partner has. He's also somewhat familiar with Java.
Basically, we need a framework that's easy to understand and get up and running.
I rolled my own framework based on http://kissmvc.com/. It allows you to basically do what you need in PHP but gives you an easy MVC framework to do it in. You don't have to learn the specific syntax to Zend, Cake, Code Ingiter or Kohana, all of which I played with before I found kissmvc. Based on a blog post by Rasmus, it was all the direction I needed and I love what I have now for reasons #animuson mentioned.
Rasmus' post: http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-The-no-framework-PHP-MVC-framework.html
From what you write, I would say all "big, famous" frameworks will be able to do this fairly "easy"... So You should really define a few prototype tasks and check out a few of the frameworks. You should be able to solve this using, CakePHP, Symfony, CodeIgniter, Yii, Zend, or any other framework, so it is better to do some real testing.
You might look for a framework that has a tight integration to jquery, but this should not be a showstopper, since you should be able to implement this in almost any framework.
You might also consider footprint and execution time, and find a framework that performes well and is not too cpu heavy (read Yii or CodeIgniter for instance).
Good luck in the search
Ultimately if you want it to fit your needs you need to build your own framework, otherwise there will always be limitations. Keep in mind that there is no framework that you can simply install and tell it to do these things, you are going to need programming knowledge of how the framework works in its entirety and how to program your custom pages to work with those features. I found it easier to just build my own framework. That way I always knew exactly what everything did and if I needed something additional, I could easily add it in the correct spot without doing much thinking on it.
A framework is only the base materials and functions you need. If you're looking for something like a pre-built website such as PHP-Nuke or a forum system, you're looking for a content management system, not a framework. A framework generally comes with absolutely no pre-built pages. Might I add that some content management systems do come with their own framework and some use existing frameworks from elsewhere.
So, we basically need a framework that's easy to understand and get up and running.
well as far as the above statement is concerned you may want to have a look at cakePHP framework.
You will easily find help on cakephp framework on stackoverflow and cakephp google group. Response will be quite fast on both the sites.
You will need to go deeply through the documentation of every framework that you plan to use because with a functionality that you are planning to built would require you to study the framework quite well.
With cakephp you will be able to create CRUD (create, update, delete) operations quite easily with less effort, but for further functionalities you will have to study it's documentation and keep your cool while you learn it :-)
I have always found plain php to be all the framework I need.
PHP itself has all the features provided by the other frameworks
A superb templating engine, database access, parsing, and control logic.
The great thing is all these features implemented in a single unified component called "php".
The main problem is you need discipline to separate presentation, navigation, busines logic and database/persistence handling. You can have sql statements mixed in with your html, you can emit html directly from an sql statement in fact you have complete freedom to implement all the known anti-patterns and invent some of your own.
The "Java" and "Perl" frameworks generally provide things like request handling, template handling etc. which are missing from the basic language, but, these features are built into php. Most of what the "php" based frameworks do is force you into (a very sensible) MVC design pattern and save you a tiny bit of coding.
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Closed 10 years ago.
I have some exposure to CakePHP and think it is a great framework.
Then, I run into this thing called Qcodo. It is another PHP Framework.
I've been hearing Zend alot. They all seem very neat, but I'm wondering what are differences between all these frameworks.
Before I waste too much time learning another framework,
does anyone know pros and cons of each framework?
They all seemed to have the general goal: making web application development in PHP easy, modular, and scalable.
EDIT
Found this interesting comparison result between CakePHP and Zend
I have never heard of Qcodo.
CakePHP is a full featured framework with a lot of automagic, but unfortunately it is one of the slowest frameworks out there. It also doesn't have official forums, and there really isn't that busy of a community. It tries to be a Ruby on Rails clone, but that just doesn't work so well with PHP.
Zend is impressive. It has a strong community and a corporate backing. It is very featured, but it is also very bloated (see that benchmark) so it has moderate performance. From what I hear though, you are able to use the components separately without using the whole framework, and can even use them with other frameworks!
I use CodeIgniter at work and I love it. It is by far the most newbie friendly framework, and with your CakePHP experience it should be a breeze. It has very good documentation that is thorough, clear, and well written. There are a few features that it doesn't have (such as an ORM) that other frameworks have, but CI has one of the most active framework communities I've seen. Since it's easy to write libraries for it, you can find a library to do pretty much anything you want to - ORMs, authentication, etc. To add to this, if you want an ORM for CI, I recommend DataMapper.
You may also want to check out Kohana. It's a spin off of CodeIgniter. It's strictly PHP5 and has an ORM and some more features. Haven't used it myself though, but I have heard good things.
I recommend reading the features of each and determining what you need and looking at code samples of the features you'll be using most.
Some frameworks may seem intuitive to you, but not to others. Selecting a PHP framework is a very personal choice IMO.
I've been using CodeIgniter myself after using CakePHP for some time. The main reason for switching was due to performance, but CakePHP has come a long way in the last few years so that's probably not a valid reason anymore.
[Edit: Apparently, it still has performance shortcomings, see post by ryeguy and comments.]
I've never found Zend to be intuitive and have never looked into Qcodo.
Wikipedia has a list of web app frameworks by language, you might find information to help you decide there as well.
I use both QCodo & Zend Framework
QCodo is a MVC framework of code generator, a lot of codes are ganerated from your database design, and produce ready to use Search & Edit Form for each of your database table. It also handle the database table relationship to pre-generate a set of methods for one-to-many / many-to-many relationship between tables.
Due to these codes were generated from your database design, all the codes were optimsed for each project. In short, It is a framework of database oriented
...................................................
Zend Framework is designed, as far as I know from the founder of this project), to decouple all the models, and indeed they are deploying a lot of ready to use models for different kind of project, from the Zend_ACL (access control list for authenication), to Zend _Search _Lucene, Zend _Service _Twitter, Zend _Service _Flickr, etc). And I think there will be for the future.
My vote for Qcodo! A while ago I did a research to what suited me best, and the result is qcodo, nowadays I can't do a project without considering to use qcodo, or at least his database handling part which is absolutely fantastic.
I think Simfony is the best PHP framework although I have not use it. I used mainly Qcodo/Qcubed but I am moving to Rails, this is why I find Simfony not bad. I tried Code Igniter and is not, it is simple to use, light (I suppose), but it does not have any scaffolding, but this might be changed now. As another guy said you can use an external ORM because CI does not have one by default. Zend Framework has a very modular architecture and has many libraries. I used Zend_ACL but permission inheritance was a pain so I did my own implentation, Zend_Lucene queries did not found the data I needed... ZF is a very low level framework and it needs an ORM too. I had a look at CakePHP but I found it its database interface not at the level of Propel, Qcodo and Doctrine, but I think the you can use your own library.
I usually want in a framework:
ORM and object wrapping the real row in the database ($objUser->Name = 'Jack')
MVC - most of the are MVC
Code generators (Qcodo is fantastic to code generate from the database)
Front controller, routing and url friendly (Qcodo does not have one)
Clean template (Qcodo has $objLabel->Render(); not real tags)
helper methods like link_to, image_tag etc (Simphony and Ruby on Rails)
Database migration to keep track of DB changes
integrated testing framework to test the real application, not few isolated functions (Rails do that and may Simfony)
The community and popularity of the framework.
Most of the advanced PHP developers I met use Simfony, but this is from my personal experience only.
Concluding, I would use Simfony bit I strongly suggest to try Rails using Ruby or JRuby.
Determining the best framework should be a project-by-project decision. If you have a big database using the innoDB engine and lots-and-lots of relationships between tables, check out QCubed (Qcodo). I've seen no framework that handles complex ORM relationships - even reverse relationships with ease! It's also quite fast at handling complex queries (e.g. reverse relationship queries) - although performance in any framework depends largely on the coder's ability to write efficiently.
If you're building a CMS, then you'll want Zend or Symfony for the MVC capabilities. QCubed/codo supposedly is MVC based, but it doesn't seem as clearly laid out as Zend. QCodo also DEPENDS on never changing the structure of your database - One can manage, but it's a real pain to add new fields to a DB table once a site has been launched because it auto-gens custom classes for each table.
I use CodeIgniter mainly because it had really good documentation and has a reputation of being easy to use. Also, Rasmus said it was his favorite, which is admittedly a lame reason, but I've had no complaints.
Don't ignore Symfony, it rocks. I'd say its biggest strengths are a consistent "go with the best practice" approach at every level, a vibrant community and excellent documentation.
I;m using QCubed, the successor to QCodo. Its simply the best you can get out of an Open Source PHP framework. Is quite fast if you know how to make it work. The only downside is that the documentation is lacking. However, the examples site is great. Start using it and I bet you'll have a lot of peace! :)