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I'm a amateur developer with a little experience in PHP.
I recently learnt Python, I've to admit that it is awesome as a programming language and its great libraries, but using that for web development seems to be a big pain in the ass. As far as what i read, I've to use CGI, mod_wsgi, etc. to deploy (http://docs.python.org/howto/webservers.html), Restart the server to see the changes (http://stackoverflow.com/questions/581038/python-web-programming)
My question is, Python being used so widely for web development, Why cant it be as simple as PHP?
ie i would love to write index.py:
print """
<html>
<head>
<title>Hello world</title>
</head>
<body>
Hello world
</body>
</html>"""
First to your question on why Python isn't as easy for web development as PHP: It hasn't been designed for it. PHP has had a lot of work towards making it a good language to write HTML pages in, including mod_php for apache. Python, while it is a very capable web language, it is also capable of far more than PHP. For example, the majority of Dropbox's software, both the desktop client and the server side code is Python. I use Python in my day job and have used it to integrate legacy C code into new Python code via Cython.
Moving on. There are a number of Python frameworks out there that can make your web development experience far less complicated. 2 of note that are widely used professionally and by hobbyists are Django and Pyramid (formerly Pylons). As a new user I'd recommend you start with Django, it's a great way to get started and can be used for large and complex sites (and more) as your experience grows.
You will find that Django and Pyramid include "development servers". These are web servers written in Python that are packaged with the frameworks to enable faster development. Using these development servers you can get up and running very quickly.
There are also pure Python web servers that are infact incredibly fast, robust and very production ready. To deploy a Pyramid application on Gunicorn, a very good Python server, only takes a couple of extra lines in your Pyramid configuration. Typically you would reverse proxy to these pure Python servers via Apache or Nginx.
If you want to go the Apache server route, you just need mod_wsgi. Serving a Python site with mod_python or as a CGI is a somewhat outdated way of doing it. WSGI defines a standard for Python to handle web requests so mod_wsgi enables apache to pass requests to your Python application in the expected format.
When it comes to deploying Python to a hosting provider, you have to look a little further than you would for PHP hosting, but there is a good list maintained on the official Python wiki. The 4 links at the bottom provided different lists to meet your requirements.
[If] Python being used so widely for web development, Why cant it be as simple as PHP? ie i would love to write index.py...
Python can be as simple as PHP, as per your example. The simplest way to make the above work is to use CGI (and call your file index.cgi rather than index.py, then your script will work just fine. Though you should really specify the content type first, like this:
print 'Content-type: text/html'
This would apply in PHP as much as Python. Python's CGI module will get you up and running very quickly.
As far as what i read, I've to use CGI, mod_wsgi, etc. to deploy
You would normally choose one or the other, and realistically you would most likely choose a framework which is based on the more modern WSGI and not worry about the low-level stuff. But if you don't want to, you don't need to bother with these low-level interfaces.
Restart the server to see the changes
Probably not. Having to restart the server is a limitation of the framework and deployment configuration, and is typically not required. If you use mod_python this may apply, but generally not (many frameworks support auto-reloading, for example).
Python has a great wealth of resources for web development. There are bare-bones systems (eg. CGI, mod_wsgi), lightweight systems (eg. CherryPy) and entire frameworks (eg. Zope). You can choose one that best suits your needs.
Being able to create a simple file and produce some output might help get something going quickly, but it is not really a sign of a rich, mature, featureful framework. Sure, you can start displaying something straight away, but what then? All of a sudden you will need to either import or write all the same sorts of functionality that web frameworks provide. For a non-trivial web app, you need non-trivial framework.
For example, something like Django will give you a persistence framework, auto-generated admin interface, a tempting language, URL dispatch system, and much more. You can focus on your app logic, and not worry about the lower level details. Django is a good place to start, as it has great documentation and the tutorial will get you going very quickly.
As others have said, google "python web framework". There are quite a few, they are all quite different. To get you started the fastest (hours), I'd look at bottle.py.
Python being used so widely for web development, Why cant it be as simple as PHP?
Because Hello World don't scale. Because Python ain't PHP. From wikipedia[1] [2]:
Python is a general-purpose, high-level programming language
PHP is a general-purpose server-side scripting language originally designed for Web development
Python is great, python is DRY friendly. Unfortunately, when it comes to web developement, DRY isn't enough. If you actually want to get things done (efficiently): don't reinvent the wheel. That was pretty well summarized here:
What seems the biggest shame to me is that everyone is currently rebuilding this stuff over and over again and rationalizing it as some sort of secret sauce competitive advantage when it’s really infrastructure – stuff that really should be standardized so you can actually get around to doing the new and interesting stuff.
So, use the right tool for the right job, if you go the python way:
use python and
use a web framework, Django is great (or another one)
reuse packages, browse them at django-packages
maybe use a "meta-framework" like Pinax to get started
use Twitter Bootstrap as an UI framework
use a PaaS like Heroku to deploy (or another one)
Yeah it's more complicated than a hello world but remember there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. You're an amateur developer, you're not a professional coder and a sysadmin and a database admin and a designer and a system architect, etc. Don't be too shy to stand on the shoulders of giants because now, it's free. Please, don't build nothing less than a modern web app.
Also, PHP isn't anymore popular as it was [1][2], cf. PHP's fractal bad design, PHP hammer, etc.
PHP was solely meant for web application development, to be more precise for building Personal Home Page(s) (thats where P, H and P came). Python on the other hand is a general purpose programming language. It was meant for a whole lot of things (and had to include all sorts of batteries for all sorts of tasks). So, please do not expect Python to behave the same way PHP does.
Stand alone python scripts will require quite a bit of efforts to run. I would suggest to pickup a web framework. You might want to learn django (https://www.djangoproject.com/) to begin with. You might also want to give Google App Engine a try. Besides heroku, dotcloud, nuagehq and other cloud hosts make python (and django) deployment very simple and easy.
Hope you'd enjoy developing web apps with Python! :)
Related
For a while now, I've been thinking about the question of user interface, with regard to ease of implementation and cross-platform compatibility. I'm primarily interested in developing desktop applications, for things that don't have a server-side storage model, or situations where internet connectivity is intermittent, etc. However, I've started doing some work on my employer's website, and found in that time that web site interfaces are very easy to develop, especially in comparison with the cross-platform UI tools I've used in the past.
With that in mind, I want to know: what are the tools/libraries available that can be integrated into a desktop application to render web content? Could be HTML, PHP, JavaScript, with/without CSS, etc. How easy/difficult are they to use?
You might actually want to check out Microsoft's Windows Presentation Foundation. It takes a lot from how the web works and applies it to desktop application development. It's not exactly HTML/CSS/PHP/JS, but it's not far off, either. It does have a bit of a learning curve, but the markup is XML based, so it's largely just a matter of learning its quirks, and of course, the .Net languages and framework (though, theoretically, you could use PHP on the .Net framework).
You might also be interested in Appcelerator Titanium, which allows you to use HTML/CSS/JS to build desktop applications. I don't know what it's desktop development is like, but I've used it for iPhone development, and it has promise.
If you want to play around with plugin/extension writing, the latest Gnome desktop environment (Gnome 3 - http://www.gnome.org/) actually runs completely off of HTML/CSS/JS and could use people to help build their extension library. It is, literally, writing desktop apps! :) (You would, of course, have to run Linux to play with it, but Fedora 15 uses Gnome 3 by default, and Linux in general comes with a number of powerful text editors, and the community has done a great job writing tutorials and documentations for getting started.)
If I understand the question right, to my knowledge there is nothing truly cross platform for doing this, you would always have to write a different version for each target platform.
Most windows apps that render web content sub the task out to IE, but I don't know how *nix app would handle this.
To use PHP to do anything on the local machine, it would have to be installed on the local machine. You can supposedly build full Windows GUIs in PHP with Winbinder although I have never messed around with it myself.
For windows-only apps, you might find HTA interesting - these are (sort of) self-contained HTML/Jscript apps and you can use links and Jscript to fetch content from remote servers.
I think your best bet would be Java though - the Java mantra is 'Write once, run anywhere' and Java GUIs are extremely portable. I'm sure I remember coming across something whereby you could use HTML to build bits of a Swing GUI as well...
What about Adobe Air? I'm not caught up on its capabilities, but I run Pandora Desktop on my Mac, which goes through Adobe Air - My impression was that it fulfills what the OP is asking.
You should have a look at Adobe AIR:
Adobe AIR with PHP/MySql or SQLite
http://www.vtc.com/products/Adobe-AIR-PHP-Development-Tutorials.htm
Never used it though so I can't really give you details but maybe somebody who has can... hope this helps
I'm deciding on a web framework for an upcoming project, and I'd appreciate any advice. We've decided to use jQuery for the JavaScript, and are heavily leaning toward Python or PHP (more Python) for our server-side logic. I'm especially interested in web2py because of its jQuery integration.
About our project
Our project is to develop a security console for a complex
cybersecurity system operating within an organization's internal
network.
This console will be largely server-driven, as messages come in from the network and must be pushed by the server to the user.
The user will also be able to initiate security actions, the implementation for which will likely be in C++.
The interface we've planned will be relatively rich, and I want to leverage jQuery's power as much as possible.
We have some control over the browser environment we'll be running in (e.g., we don't have to worry about clients with JavaScript disabled).
Our site is likely to have only a few, long-lived client connections.
We are looking for software components with permissive licenses, though we're using some copyleft components (I see that web2py is LGPL while Django is BSD, so +1 to Django)
We have about a month to create a functional demo of our system, of which this interface is a small (but visible) part.
About us
We are two developers with about 5 years of programming experience, but little web development experience. I have several years of Python experience and a summers' worth of experience messing around with PHP. My coworker has some Python experience and has never touched PHP.
I used Django once back in 2008, and was frustrated by the file and code structure, which I found highly unintuitive. Perhaps this structure is inherent to the MVC model (I've had similar experiences with Django and CakePHP since), and I just need to bite the bullet and memorize it.
My Question
Given the information above, what are the relative advantages of the various Python/PHP web frameworks for our project? As mentioned above, I'm especially interested in web2py because of its jQuery integration, though Django's dominance is (once again) hard to ignore.
Thank you very much for your time!
Before deciding on a framework, you should first decide if you want to commit to a language you are unfamiliar with.
You said you've both got minimal PHP experience, so you have to weigh up the advantages here; Will the pros for going PHP (if any) out weigh the amount of time the developers will need to spend to retrain?
(Although depending on your background experience, PHP should be very easy to pick up.)
If you frame it like that, PHP would have to have a pretty convincing offering to give you. From what I'm seeing, specifically Django vs web2py, they both seem very close in functionality - which is good, but doesn't provide the "you must use x!" scenario you may be after.
However, If you will be bringing more people in later and feel finding people to work with web2py will be difficult, it may tip it to PHP. You said your self, Django's popularity (and BSD license) is hard to ignore, and it should make it easier to find people for later expansion.
If it were me, in your shoes, I would go with web2py. Assuming the development team will continue to be Python focused for the foreseeable future.
Python vs PHP: Python
With python, you can always write wrappers for C code so you won't have to mess with starting other processes and passing args to them. That might be useful for your security functions.
Web2py will allow you to easily write a webservice for this too, to more easily integrate the C portions with the web-site infrastructure.
If you already prefer python, I would go with that. If you need to bring on web-developers later that are trained in PHP, teach them Python. It won't take long, and I'm sure they'll appreciate it in the long run. Plus, moving from a PHP MVC framework to web2py or even django would make things easier. I've used CodeIgniter for PHP and find that web2py was so much simpler and easy to understand.
Also as for the directory structure, django is not actually true MVC -- it's MTV (model, template, view).
I find web2py's organization a little more straight-forward. But yes, either way it can seem strange at first. I would say YES, you should bite the bullet and use MVC.
In web2py, the "view" is html markup with the ability to write raw python code. The controller extracts data from the model (database), attaches any needed files (css/js etc) and the model of course simply defines the structure of the data and allows you to access it in an OO way.
Lastly, I wouldn't tip my hat in favor of web2py just because of jQuery integration. It does use it, and a some of the built-in framework stuff (like response.flash/session.flash, the LOAD function that loads a page or data from another controller) rely on jQuery, but using it in another framework only means you have to write an include statement (e.g. ).
But, the way it allows/forces you to focus on development is what takes the cake for me.
I've been using Django as part of my work for a couple years now and truly enjoy it when I can make it work. Unfortunately, and maybe it's just me, but I end up spending hours working on configuration every time I start a new server, or try to make it work in a development IDE.
It's relatively simple to start a new project and start coding. But there are all sorts of little catches that keep things from working if you deviate from the norm. Things like if you want your django project to serve from a subdirectory like example.com/django. The information is out there to make it work. But it's hard to find.
I can't tell you if web2py has those same problems or not. I only just learned about it from your question. It does look slick and simple though. I can tell you that after the hassles of getting the applications to serve properly from whatever server configuration I'm using, django is way more fun to program with than plain php. PHP frameworks may differ.
From my understanding the project not usual web application, you must need event driven program, web server in python.
Django won't help you here.You should look into Flask, Flask has inbuilt console too.http://werkzeug.pocoo.org/, you might need to use twisted, gevent,Flask jquery.
I would recommend asking about web2py on its mailing list -- you'll get lots of help and advice there. Regarding the LGPL license, note that it only applies to the framework, not your application -- you can license your application however you like, including closed source/commercial.
It sounds like you'll need some server push functionality, but if you'll really only need a few long-lived connections at a time, you might not need to bother with solutions like Twisted or gevent. If necessary, though, web2py does include this (requires Tornado, and works using WebSockets, though can be adapted to use other methods).
I'm looking to develop a Win32 desktop app - a one off, for a personal need. A GUI is not scrictly needed, though would be a bonus.
What is needed:
The ability to monitor the window title of a specific window.
The ability to run DOS commands when this window title changes.
I hope my programming ability is up to this - I feel I'm pretty good with PHP, but I'm not ready to spend time learning OO for this one-off project.
What non OO (or at least not mandatorily OO) languages are there for desktop apps that might be suitable for a beginner on a task like?
Any other, more hacky approaches are welcome too - batch scripts etc.
Many thanks for any advice,
Jack
Whether or not the language supports OO doesn't really matter for your purposes. After all, PHP supports objects and you seem to do just fine with it.
Personally, i'd recommend Java or C# to get started with. The communities for these two languages are huge and there are plenty of tutorials online to help you get started.
It's extremely easy to get starting writing C# with Visual Studio Express. And a good hello world tutorial.
Also, if you stick with C# you can take advantage of WMI which will allow you to do everything you need for this project (and much much more).
Lastly, most windows machines will be able to run your application without having to install anything extra and Visual Studio builds the .exe for you as part of the build process.
You can use PHP for desktop apps if you really want to. Just install the php CLI.
You can even do a gui for your desktop app in php: http://gtk.php.net/
EDIT: I'm not sure how easily you can call win32 api functions from PHP, however. There look to be a few articles about this online and a SO question: How to call winapi functions from PHP?
I would vote for Python using the included TkInter module for GUI. Dead simple to use.
Widgets aren't the prettiest looking, but development is rapid.
EDIT: I mistook "non-OO" in the question for "OO". Python is most definitely not "non-OO", but but is very well suited to doing what you asked.
You could write this in pretty much any mainstream language supported by Windows. C or C++ are obvious choices. C# and Visual Basic .NET are going to require the .NET Framework ... not a bad thing, but perhaps more than you want to tackle for a simple project. Come to think of it, you might be able to do this with JScript or VBScript, although I'm not clear on what API functions you have easy access to. And I have to believe that it's possible to do with PowerShell with just a little work.
Your options are wide open.
F#
It's an awesome piece of work, has access to the Framework class libraries, supports GUI development, really easy parallel programming, compiles to IL (same as C#) but has a really concise functional syntax.
I wanted to try out python to create webpages instead of using php. However I came across that you need either mod_python or mod_wsgi installed to apache to make it play with python. If you now use pure, i'm not sure if it should be said pure, python code, not using any web frameworks like django. I found out that making a simple page looks differently in mod_python and in mod_wsgi.
How come?, the more I looked into python it just seemed to be a harder language to use to make webpages comparing it to php. Is there some good starting point to learn python webdevelopment?
Sorry if my question is blurry. I simply want some guidance to start out with python webdevelopment
Yes, making a webpage with python without using a web framework is harder than it is in php. This is by design, since it gives you a great deal more control over how your page interacts with the server, allowing you to build sites that scale well, among other benefits. WSGI is the modern way to interact with a server, but as you observed, it includes many of the nuts and bolts that PHP hides from the user.
If you're looking for a php-like experience for python, you might look at web.py or Flask. They are pretty minimalistic as far as frameworks go, and take care of interacting with the server but otherwise stay out of your way.
That said, you really should consider Django or another similar framework - they provide some really great benefits that help you get what would otherwise be painfully complex sites going quickly. They solve a slightly different problem and provide different solutions from the common PHP frameworks, so you should consider them even if you don't like frameworks in PHP.
If you want to do things in an even more php-like fashion, you could use CGI. It's definitely not a recommended solution, and won't teach you best practices moving forward, but it can get you started...
Really though, consider a framework. It's how most development in Python for the web is done, and you'll learn more useful skills if you develop using one.
mod_wsgi is better, because it's based on the WSGI specification, which defines the interface between web applications (or frameworks) and web servers. A WSGI app at its simplest is nothing more than a function that sends some HTTP headers via a callback and returns a string in response to information about an HTTP request. And since WSGI is implemented by many web servers, you aren't tied to Apache.
The closest you can get to pure frameworkless web development in Python is to write the WSGI app directly. This will really help you see the things that a framework like Django will obscure.
To make things easier, you might consider using Werkzeug, which is a utility library for WSGI. It has many components that are framework-like, but you can choose which ones you want and which ones you don't. For example, it has a really neat system for parsing and dispatching URLs. Werkzeug also has a simple command-line WSGI server which is probably better for development than Apache.
I'm replying to you with some advice, as someone who was in a very similar situation as you just a few months ago.
So you're using apache to host your website. That's cool. To make python play nice with apache, you're going to want to use mod_wsgi, for the reasons others have stated: seperation of concerns makes it better than cgi and mod_python is no longer being supported.
However, your impression that foregoing a framework will bring you closer to programming in "pure" python is a little bit off the mark. I shared the same opinion, and experimented with both Django and using only mod_wsgi. Let me share what I found.
Mod_wsgi is an implementation of the WSGI standard found in PEP 333. The distinction between the implementation and the standard is important. First, because it means that WSGI compliant applications will work across implementations. More importantly, it reveals something important about what WSGI is meant to do. That is, WSGI is intended a standard for writing frameworks. From the PEP:
simplicity of implementation for a framework author is not the same thing as ease of use for a web application author
and
The goal of WSGI is to facilitate easy interconnection of existing servers and applications or frameworks, not to create a new web framework.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't do something with wsgi, but you should expect to be writing a framework more than an application. If you're interested in writing a simple framework this tutorial is where I started.
However, if you're just looking to make a website, look into one of the frameworks that others have suggested. You'll still be writing python code, but the authors have worked hard to make the code you write closer connected producing websites than producing frameworks. I've personally used Django, and once it was up and running, it was rather painless to churn out interesting applications. Also, their documentation is very good, and they have a good tutorial here. That being said, Django is very fully featured, and if you're looking for something a little more minimalistic, I've heard good things about Flask, but there are lots of other options as well.
You can use ordinary CGI, which is really simple. Create a Python program that looks something like this:
#!/usr/bin/env python
import sys
sys.stdout.write("Content-type: text/html\r\n\r\n")
print("Hello <em>world</em>!")
Make this file executable (chmod +x) and put it in a directory you've configured for CGI files in your web server.
You will also find the standard Python cgi module very helpful.
If your goal is for making your python program web friendly then the answer is Cherrypy. It is a very flexible and simple framework that enables your python objects exposed in web. Check it out and it has a nice web server built-in that you don't need apache/mod_wsgi etc.,
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I'm about to begin my next web development project and wanted to hear about the merits of Lua within the web-development space.
How does Lua compare to PHP/Python/JSP/etc.. for web development?
Any reason why Lua would be a poor choice for a web application language vs the others?
In brief:
Lua gives you a smaller, simpler system that you can understand in its entirety, but it is in a much smaller ecosystem; Kepler is all you get, and you will probably have to build some of your own stuff. I find this easy and fun (I make heavy use of the Lua bindings to the Expat parser and the Lua Object Model, which are part of Kepler), but others may prefer to use what everyone else is using.
PHP started out as more of a macro processor than a language, and although it has improved over the years, when people say "X has really gotten a lot better", I tend to be wary of X. I find PHP offputting, but there is a huge ecosystem for web development.
Python is a nice language but much bigger than Lua, and in the throes of a major revision (transition from 2.5 to 3.x). Again you get a big ecosystem; the problem I have with Python is that the language and system are too big for any one person to understand all of. I don't like to be in this situation if I don't have to.
Ruby is a bit of a cleaner language design, and the large Rails ecosystem is a winner. Ruby is less complex than Python but more complex than Lua. Rails is a bit of a beast.
It comes down to this question:
Would you rather understand all the software in your system, even if you have to build a lot of things yourself?
Or would you rather have a lot of things already built for you, even if you wind up not understanding exactly how every piece works?
If you want to understand everything, Lua is your game. If you want a lot of stuff already built for you, I can't advise you how to pick among PHP/Python/JSP/Rails and so on.
More on Lua and Python at Which language is better to use, Lua or Python?
Using Lua for web development is pretty rare...you could do it, but it will be a lot more time consuming than using a language that has matured as a web developing language (PHP) or has good web related libraries (python/ruby/etc.) If you do go with Lua, this means you may end up "recreating the wheel" a lot for what may be easily available in mature web languages.
The better question is, what does Lua offer that you need which is not offered in the other languages you listed? Or do you want to help Lua become a better web development platform by creating a Lua MVC framework like Rails did for Ruby?
The Kepler project is probably the best known starting point for web application development in Lua. They have a mailing list whose archives will have a lot of discussion of the merits of various approaches.
The Kepler site is itself built in a CMS framework called Sputnik written almost entirely in Lua, and based on the Kepler project.
The typical approach with Lua is to use a language suited to interfacing to various system components to implement those interfaces, and to use Lua for business logic and glue. Kepler provides libraries written largely in C that provide access to file systems, databases, and the network to Lua code. It also provides a defined API layer to interface with the web server, with implementations for Apache, any CGI capable server, and Xavante which is a complete web server implemented mostly in Lua.
I'm coming a little late ... but i wanted to throw in another language: Haxe
why?
Haxe is an open source language, driven by a quite small, but active community
Haxe is a platform indepented language ... targets are:
flash player 6-8 and 9-10 bytecode or ActionScript 3 source code
JavaScript source code
PHP source code
NekoVM bytecode or Neko source code (NekoVM is a lightweight and extensible VM, suitable for both server developement, and desktop apps)
C++ source code
Android Java source code is currently being worked on
this means, that as a web developer, you can write both rich clients as well as servers in the same language ... the same code can be later reused for desktop/mobile apps
Haxe is a very expressive and powerful language, featuring:
first class functions (anonymous functions and methods, which are the same in Haxe) and closures as well as Enums with parameters (much like algebraic types) that allow the use of functional approaches
good type system, including generics, structural subtyping etc. ... to simplify its use, the compiler has a very helpful type inference, that ensures code is strictly typed, but saves you a lot of redundancy (variable type is determined by initialization, function return type by type of returned expressions) ...
cross-platform API, including everything from dynamic arrays, to reflection/introspection and a remoting package, that alows you to send whole objects from client to server, from one platform to another ...
consistent and radical language design ... of course it has a few flaws, but these mostly come from the fact, that it targets extremely different platforms ...
girls love it and it'll make you real rich ... :D
the biggest flaw about Haxe is, that it allows untyped coding, at the cost of platform specific execution of untyped code ... when well typed (which is not a lot of work with Haxe in fact), code will be executed the same way on all platforms ... if not, result vary depending on runtime handling of the platform itself ...
to put it in a few words: it's a great language, that allows you to target many platforms ... it's young, it's growing, and you can participate ...
If it's only the language, then I agree with Norman. If the web development framework is important to you, then you have to consider Ruby because RoR is a very mature framework. I love Python, but there seems to be quite a few frameworks to choose from, none of them is dominant. CherryPy, Django, Pylons, web2py, Zope 2, Zope 3, etc. One important indicator to me is that there are more RoR jobs on the market than any other (language, framework).
As far as Lua web frameworks, there is also LuCI. It is mostly used for small embedded systems. We're just starting a project using it, so I can't comment on it too much right now. We're just doing some simple configuration screens similar to what is already provided as examples, so I'm sure it will be sufficient for our needs.